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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    I told ya, I got it from vstol jockey. He said Rafale demonstrated superiority in BVR.

    As for the radar, the MKI operates it in training mode. And EW by default is not used in exercises.
     
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Coming back to the point ..... there has been no head to head analysis done yet. Reason being the fact that you do not have a Rafale in IAF.

    IAF will not use a platform, that is to be returned, to pit against a Su-30 MKI in full spectrum so that the Electromagnetic Signature is recorded in the sensor of the platform which can then be downloaded at the Base Facility and examined.

    Heck, are you even aware of how signatures of each aircraft varies and is obtained? If you are, did you stop to ponder over this fact at all?

    Are you aware of the level of data interlinking and integration between Su-30MKI and A-50s as also other platforms due to similarity of interface?

    It is not just in thin air that IAF claims it can take care of PAF, but will be slightly hard pressed against PLAAF.
     
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  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Really ... which genius told you that? So Su 30 MKI went against a Rafale in A2A simulations with French Pilots and then you did a comparative assessment?

    Or did IAF send it and not use EW to pit both aircraft’s at their max against each other?

    Think on this one and realise how daft it sounds.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    You don't need a source for this. There are only three aircraft operational in the world today that have sensor fusion and relatively advanced networking, F-22, F-35 and Rafale.

    MKI is in the process of entering this list with the upgrade. Currently, all the MKI sensors are federated and independent from each other. The WSO does the task of sensor fusion, so it's all manual.

    For example, the radar does its own thing, the IRST does its own thing, and so on. It doesn't have enough bandwidth to share data with all other platforms, although this aspect will see some improvement with a new datalink.

    But with Rafale, data from the radar and other sensors are combined and targets can be tracked more efficiently by combining the strengths of each sensor. The radar can provide accurate ranging while the IRST provides excellent angular accuracy. Combining the data will provide far more accurate targeting capabilities than if you are using just the radar or the IRST. This is sensor fusion. And the Rafale can then send this data to all other aircraft in the network. So an old Mirage-2000 with 80s technology can perform at the same level as an advanced Rafale because it now has high quality tracking data. Similarly Rafale can download data from other sensors, like a ship, and generate new tracking data. This is all 5+ and 5++ generation capability. MKI lacks all of this right now.
     
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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    When a radar is used in training mode, nothing is given away.

    We have used the MKI's Bars in training mode in all exercises, even in both the Red Flag exercises.
     
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  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    My God!

    It has to do with your overall C4I2 set up. That is the limitation in achieving a full spectrum of data integration.

    Heck, we are so messed up in our business that I could not contact a tank 500 meters ahead of me over a set!!!

    It was because of difference in equipment and lack of integrator.

    You can bloody well get 10000 Rafales and you will still be in same shit.
     
  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Arre bhai mere .... you want the original welcome video too of IAF in Red Flag? I have that too.

    Spare me this tangentiality. I have posted disclaimers, so that you get the hint.

    Did you stop and actually think this one out that had Rafale and MKI been tested against each other, either it would be in training mode wherein you cannot comment on its capability against Rafale or if India did test it, it would still not be full spectrum?

    Can you tell me who (nationality) of the pilot flying the Rafale, location, year?
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    EW is generally not used in exercises because most other radar capabilities are hidden. So a Bars in training mode will be easily defeated by dedicated EW, especially if it is highly automated and outside the control of the pilot, like most self protection suites are. This is normal.
     
  9. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Which gets me back to signature issues.
    Which gets me back to your original claim of Rafale being better than MKI in BVR.
     
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  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Sure, it's a problem when it comes to integrating all our various imported platforms. This is something we have to solve ourselves, but we will need extensive ToT, which we can get only if we buy enough numbers of each jet.
     
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  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    And we come back to your claim of Rafale being better in BVR. How?
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    You don't need full spectrum capability demonstrated to prove superiority.

    100% of the flying capabilities are demonstrated. And the basic tech specs will give plenty of clues about the capabilities of the system. We already operate the advanced version of M-2000 to know how good the specs really are.

    Hence:
    Advantage 5: Rafale's superior air to air capabilities over the MKI will become evident to the thick bureaucrats before 2021 when the IAF starts receiving exercise data.

    Here I was referring to IAF testing the Rafale against the MKI.
     
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  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Four major reasons why Rafale is better.

    1. It has more sensors, more advanced sensor capabilities and fusion of all the sensors.
    2. It has a lower signature, which can be further lowered electronically.
    3. It has superior weapons.
    4. It has a smaller logistics footprint.

    And for each of these, the differences are large. It's more than a 1 generation gap.

    It doesn't matter how good the MKI is, it cannot defeat the Rafale with similar capability avionics. The only way it can defeat the Rafale is if it beats the Rafale in every one of these parameters, and only 1 and 3 are realistically possible. Point 4 may not affect an individual event, but it applies to the whole conflict.

    But MKI will never surpass point 2, it's impossible due to the laws of physics. The Rafale presents a radar signature that is more than 30 times smaller than the MKI. This means if a MKI can detect another MKI at 400Km, it can detect a clean Rafale only at 100Km or a loaded Rafale at 200Km. This is a huge advantage even without EW. RCS upgrades will help it bring it on par with the Su-35, but Rafale will still have a 15 times smaller signature.

    Otoh, Rafale only has to keep up with the MKI with respect to point 1 and 3 if it wants to hold an overwhelming advantage.

    The MKI is basically a Cold War relic. It has some very good advantages, namely the high supersonic persistence and a very big radar, but that's about it. You will need the FGFA to beat the Rafale.

    The difference between the Rafale and the MKI cannot practically be bridged. As far as I'm concerned, the Rafale is more competitive with the F-22 and F-35.
     
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  14. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    @randomradio

    I asked you to source this. Am still wondering which exercises involved Su-30MKI and Rafale against each other. Because as far as I know, there is no occurrence of this match yet.

    Are we using Colonel James G Burton's criterion of BVR? Or are we using the Gulf War Air Power Survey BVR Criteria? The 'max range' is misleading.

    For other members, a chart depicting the Gulf War Air Power Survey BVR Criteria (a bit out of date):

    121.PNG

    Colonel Burton was using a 5 NM limit in daylight as his cut off criteria.



    There you go :)

    Mig-21s in low level sorties are hard to detect even by A-50. Not very sure how this is of any relevance in comparing the two aircrafts in BVR configuration.
     
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  15. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Oh, the bureaucrats will count TEs ... leave that aside. I am very keen on Rafale Vs MKI .. a test not yet done, being decided in favour of the former with claims as absurd as 'lack of data integration'

    And Weapons?
    In BVR profile?

    LOL
     

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