Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

Tags:
  1. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    My sources are also very authentic as good as the guys who actually flew against them. I stated what really happened and why Rafale came up on top. Su-30MKI was given handicap and its actual potential was not put to test. But in Dogfights they did very well. I remember the DACTS we did against Mig-29s and even a Matra Magic cud lock on in the head on mode. In those we had a new tactic in place called A4M tactics which invilved giving a head on cross to the attackers and to our surprise we used to have our missiles locking on to the very proud exhaust cones of Mig-29s even from dead ahead position while the tactics presumption was that if we stay within 10* nose cone of attacker for head on cross, the attackers missile will not be able to lock on. We avoided it but Mig-29s cud not.
     
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Country Flag:
    India
    Granted. Where will you fuse it? Amongst other rafales right? So does MKI .... point redundant.

    Granted. So does Mig 21 Bis have ..... we continue with that?
    Irrelevant point as your sensors and detection by AWACS from stand off distances is applicable.


    BVR? ... Meteor? for Rafale?

    100 + Kms?

    R-77 RVV-AE rated at 80 kms for Mig 21 Bisons/Su-30 MKI/ Mig 29s
    and R-77 RVV AE PD rated at 160 kms Su-30 MKI/Mig 29 UPGs
     
  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Country Flag:
    India
    So, a French pilot flew the said Rafale or Indian Pilot? There is no record both officially or unofficially, of any exercise ... and it was the exercise bit I was pinning.

    Again, was it a test done by IAF pilots internally? Because there is no record of this in any Joint Ex. I have that confirmed :)
     
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    This is about the exercise that took place in Rajasthan in summers about two years back. The BVR shot range was reduced which gave an advantage to Rafale. same was subsequently done in UK also when Su-30s flew to UK for exercise. The main weapon of Rafale even today is MICA.
     
    Shekhar Singh and Hellfire like this.
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    I believe the first time we fought the Rafale was in Garuda V.

    Low level sorties significantly degrade the range of missiles. So most of the fighting will be WVR.

    More modern missiles may provide longer ranges, but to pull out the Mig-21's radar signature from ground clutter, you will need a fighter radar that uses X band. A-50 uses the L band which has very low resolution in such situations.
     
    Hellfire likes this.
  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Country Flag:
    India

    So we can safely draw the conclusion that claims as made by @randomradio attributing superiority to Rafale in BVR to you were misplaced?
     
  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Country Flag:
    India

    But I have rebutted all the three points of yours ... er, there were 4 I guess ... let e head back and rebut that too ...... :)
     
  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Country Flag:
    India
    @randomradio

    How has it got a smaller logistic footprint?

    What constitutes a logistic line for a weapons platform when you make the statement as in point 4 of your contention of Rafale having a smaller logistic footprint?
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    You are talking about networking, fusion and networking are independent.

    Fusion of sensors is when data from your radar, EW, IRST, MAWS, missile seeker etc are sent into one computer for processing. In the MKI, you have different computers for each of the sensors, so there is no fusion, the pilot has to do it himself.

    When the final data you get is sent over datalink to other aircraft, that's networking.

    MKI cannot do fusion. And its ability to network, although I don't know to what extent it can network, will be quite limited because of lack of fusion. So all the WSOs are going to have to start cracking their fingers and probably work for a long time to get the same kind of data the Rafale can process in seconds.

    If we can network the A-50 with the MKI, then we can do the same with Rafale. So even if the Rafale and MKI may not talk to each other, at least they can both talk to the A-50.

    The Mig-21's RCS is much bigger than Rafale's. It could potentially be as much as 10-15 times bigger to as much as 1000 times bigger.

    There's no point if the A-50 only detects the Rafale. The point is to have fighter radars cue missiles to bring down the Rafale.

    Now, the A-50 can find a Mig-21 using L band and a MKI can kill it using X band. But while the A-50 will likely find the Rafale, the MKI's X band may fail against the Rafale, so Rafale will be the one doing the killing even if it was detected earlier.

    The R-77's range may be bigger, may not be bigger, I've seen ranges as big as 250Km for Meteor, but even if the Meteor's range is smaller than the R-77, it is a better killer than the R-77.

    The R-77 is a coaster. It has a boost phase and then a coast phase where it slowly loses speed. But the Meteor's flight is fully powered. And at lower ranges, it can accelerate faster towards the target. What's even more special is it can time the flight to such an extent that it can completely use up all its fuel before impact.

    The no escape zone of the Meteor is much bigger than the R-77 because of its ramjet motor.

    A good read:
    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...r-to-air-missile-really-the-best-in-the-world
     
    Kane0610 likes this.
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    Even when I had posted this, I had stated this limitation of weapon range and the huge exhaust cones of engines as the primary reason.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    It takes 3 hours to prep a MKI for flight, it takes Rafale only 30 minutes.

    It takes many hours to replace the engine on MKI. On Rafale it takes 30 min.

    MKI needs extensive maintenance, as much as 30 hours of service for every hour of flight. Rafale's is many times lesser, I think 9 hours for every hour of flight.

    MKI's airframe and engine require expensive overhauls where they take the aircraft away to a factory and they rip the aircraft open. Neither Rafale's airframe nor engine require overhaul. Once a Rafale is delivered to an airbase, it only leaves the airbase for a mission or in a body bag, so it is almost always operationally available. MKI can leave an airbase for long periods for 3rd line maintenance and overhauls.

    Rafale is highly modular. So if you want to fix something, you only need to take out the faulty module or LRU and replace it with a new one. It can be done on the flight line. For example, the engine has 21 modules. If a module is faulty, you can replace that module quickly and get the aircraft ready for flight immediately. You can then send the module away for repairs. But in the MKI's case, if there's a fault with a small part of the engine, the entire engine has to be removed and sent back to the factory. If a replacement engine is not available, the MKI is grounded.

    As a smaller aircraft, Rafale requires less spare parts and fuel. But provides greater capability.

    These are just stuff I can remember off the top of my head. There are definitely more than that, like the ease of maintenance of electronics, the lower MTBF etc.
     
    sunny6611, Kane0610 and ashkum2278 like this.
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    When BVR ranges are restricted, it applies to all the players, not just one side. Normally, the red team plays with a slightly smaller range while the blue team has a few Kms advantage.

    You can say the restriction of the BVR range is more of a disadvantage for the Rafale rather than the MKI. But let's also not forget that the Rafale used in the exercise was the old Rafale, not the newer Rafale with AESA radar, DDM-NG and Meteor capability.

    And you can make an educated guess that the MICA was simulated, so 25NM is the normal firing range for this missile. Max ranges are never used. The closer you are the more lethal the missile.
     
  13. Tejpal

    Tejpal Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2015
    Messages:
    684
    Likes Received:
    189
    Country Flag:
    United Kingdom
    What's the point of MII for 93 jets? It's a pittance. And there's the issue of a period of no jets being delivered between last Rafale of first tranche being delivered (2021 IIRC) and production line setting up (2023-2024?)

    Whilst I agree, any deal has to be sealed quickly i.e. within the next year, there needs to be more than just 93 jets produced.
     
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    If Dassault bags a second tranche of 36 and the navy's deal for 57, that would be the start. IAF will then place third and fourth tranche orders and the IN is interested in the production of at least a 100 more jets. They need that many for the 3rd carrier.
     
  15. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    245
    Country Flag:
    India
    Bro! I have my fingers crossed. We desperately need 150-200 Rafale's.
     

Share This Page