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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    That is where you are erring, you never use MKI's performance standards at near WVR ranges. It is at maximum ranges. And today, it is being taken at 150 kms.

    Now I am quite keen on those figures. I am actually quite poor on comparative facts as am not into this line at all. But from what I know with my discussions with Su-30 MKI users, I find a lot of discrepancies here ...
     
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  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    The basic premise is flawed. There never has been a test in vs MKI even in MMRCA evaluations by IAF. Heck, we do not switch on our communications sets near US CBGs in Indian Ocean and you expect IAF to switch on it's MKIs in front of an Aircraft having sensors to record the data for off site download and analysis?

    Now most of my information regarding both the MKI and data interlink is from users, with an A-50 pilot for latter for data integration across platforms.

    I agree, a very powerful PESA Radar is equally effective, especially when backed up by a longer engagement range.

    Assumptions that a Rafale will detect a MKI earlier are based on presuming that the pilot of a Su-30 MKI is an idiot flying an aircraft and not actively scanning for aerial targets (open sources give a figure of 350 Kms) in war scenario. The additional assumption that the Jamming of X band will nullify the Su-30 MKI is another joke as it is again premised on the misconception of a Jammer being a comprehensive Jammer and not being a beacon in active jamming phase. The next contention of 'even if MKI fires at stand off range, it (rafale) shall simply turn and run away' is all the more laughable. Why is MKI not going to fire in a volley with seeker redundancy in the volley?

    There is a difference in testing under standard conditions to evaluate a platform and a different ball game to extrapolate it to war scenario.,
     
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  3. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well the real and authentic data regarding Rafale vs Su30mki could be available in two years from now when Rafales start arriving. Till then it's all speculation and extrapolation of one's limited knowledge of the subject.
     
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  4. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Exactly.

    There has been no test ever done of the two platforms by IAF in a Vs situation .. and MKI is operated by IAF.

    Any contention to otherwise is 'Bullshit Theory'. Hence my more than stipulated posts on any aircraft thread.

    We are so sensitive about MKI that we hardly use it's full potential and array in border regions, relying on AWACS for that, and one expects the same in Exercise?
     
  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    What I posted was very specific and precise. It clearly explained why Rafale had emerged on top and why MKI lost out. But you must know what is called data fusion, when it helps and when it does not. if you are fighting on the boundary of BVR and WVR, your data fusion is of no use bcoz you are not allowed the use of sensors which give you the larger picture allowing use of better attack profile and geometry. MICA is called BVR missile but it is just on the boundary of WVR-BVR and FSO does give that advantage to Rafale.
    Either the people you have spoken to are lying thru their teeth or you have spoken to wrong people.
     
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  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    If only you knew about BVR A2A missile warfare, you will know that much before you fire any long range missile, your presence is known to the opponent and he is prepared and ready for you. AND just firing the missile does not result in Kill as is normally granted in BVR battles but the end game tactics used by the missile and the target decide the outcome. which include jamming to spoofing to outmanouvering the missile itself.
     
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  7. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    Lets look at it shall we?

    Rafale advantages include: AESA radar, magnitudes smaller RCS 0.5, spectra active cancellation (however much you buy active cancellation) and sensor fusion

    SU30MKI advantages include: Larger radar in size, IRST, able to host more missiles.

    IRST is a huge factor, but the combination of AESA, lower rcs (0.5 vs 15-20) and sensor fusion gives the advantage to the Rafale.

    To be fair, I'm not well educated in SU-30MKI so correct me if I'm wrong or want to add some advantages or disadvantages.

    Could someone make the argument for SU-30?
     
  8. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Anyone who told you that MKI will go in the battle with its 370km range radar on, is a person who has probably never sat in any fighter cockpit and is not even aware what tactics are used by fighters with such long range weapons and sensors and where and in what form of battle do we use such weapons?
    You are an army man, why do you hold fire and allow the enemy to get really close when you have weapons to take him out from 500m?
    The game of killing is same all across platforms, types of warfare and species. Whether its a predator or a Fighter or an infantryman, they all follow same basic principle of outstanding sensors, better agility, high speed, and attack at a time and at a place which gives no chance to the prey to escape and results in successful hunt with smallest effort.
    You know my name or take it from the other mods and give my number to that idiot who told you these stories. I think I need to speak to this man.
     
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  9. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Another possibility, people here know jack shit.

    You want exact specs?

    "Mc1 and MC2 on software 11i. Data fusion is made possible of all parameters ie nav and combat" confirmation real time.

    I will not go beyond that.

    @randomradio

    Get your facts lined up. Earlier I had sent a pm.

    Go over the ASQR of ODL Phase 2 of 2015. Scratch your head and wonder why IAF wants ODL linking Rafale and Su-30 MKI with latter acting in role of provision of Radar solution in a mixed strike package.

    And that is your answers as in quotes above. Quoting the pilot who is current and A1G1 too :D
     
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Am talking strictly in his parameters :)

    And I told you earlier too, I can discuss aviation in depth, but am neither current in day to day terms nor interested in depth. But when discrepancies from facts are mainstreamed, I do comment.
     
  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Speaking in his terms

    Let us go to the brasstacks.

    When you talk of F-16 failing the muster in Leh, that is jack shit. Anyone who expects IAF fighters to take off for strike mission from Leh knows jackshit.


    I am and I reiterate, attacking the contention of MKI being bested in BVR when the range itself is in near WVR parameters :D

    And you are very current with MKI fighting doctrine today, than the damn serving ex-CO right?

    Glad to know that.

    PS: You are one, I have a team of your seniors, peers and juniors ... all aviators and A Master Green. Anything else?
     
  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    As of now, your posts show that either you misunderstood the guy or he knows shit about air warfare.
     
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  13. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

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    To be fair, the MiG 29, Mirage and Jaguar won't be around as long as F-16, MKI or Rafale; and the FGFA may not even come at all.
     
  14. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Yeah right, a few of them may be mistaken in belief of the term data fusion ... agreed

    Anything else?

    The poor pilot who finished command of a Flanker Sqn recently with probably as much service as you must have put in, is surely an idiot when he claims he has data fusion in his sukhoi and does not have to manually collate the data as being claimed so far.

    I agree it is not A-320 (whose FMS does have interesting random glitches once in a while) ....
     
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  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    He may have commanded a SU-30MKI, but if what you posted here and attributed to him, is correct, than he was just smarting thru his ass. And mind you, I deal with these guys on a daily basis, Just being a fighter pilot does not give you the kind of knowledge one thinks you have. even while in service, I was way ahead of my contemporaries and there was a reason for that. All fighter pilots are not equal, some are very good and some are very bad also.
     
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