Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

Tags:
  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India

    Yeah right ..... and what have I been seeing here so far? One brilliant piece of claim after another? How about actually researching ODL Phase 1 and 2 programs and then talk?

    A theoretical supremacy of the Rafale in BVR at 25 nm (as if there is going to be an engagement at 25 nm by Sukhoi of IAF) on heresay and purely speculative parameters of larger 'thermal bloom'?

    Or my favorite .. of no data fusion in Su-30 MKI.

    The damn aircraft had data fusion when first proposed to India and India declined the same as it wanted to integrate the Israeli systems. That is how MKI came about.

    At times I really do not know whether to face palm or laugh :D

    I did not tag you so far because I knew you would not be putting everything out. Hence asked you the rhetorical question of why would you put information in such a way that members got misled.

    Again I am indicating .. it is not A320 :D
     
  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    First learn the difference between your elbow and your ass, after that talk about fighters and Pax aircraft like SU-30MKI & A-320. I flew Sea Harrier also. You are thoroughly confused between the capability of an aircraft and the tactics employed in air battles. And my coursemates are now sering AVMs who flew this aircraft much before this ex CO of flanker sqn even got his goddamn wings. So stop peddling shit here.
     
  3. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2016
    Messages:
    806
    Likes Received:
    792
    Country Flag:
    India
    OMG not again...
     
    Zer0reZ likes this.
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    @Hellfire, if you take out the fighter part of SU-30MKI and compare it only as a platform for navigation and flight controls, A-320 will beat it hollow any day. Nt just Su-30MKI but every other fighter aircraft.
    Just for your information, A-320 does Cat-3B autoland which includes centerline tracking of runway, coming to a complete stop on the runway using autopilot. I am one of the earliest pilots of India to be cleared for Cat-3B ops when they first started in India in Delhi.
     
  5. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India
    I know the difference, perhaps you need to learn that. Still in NDA I see, are you? Grow up.


    You seem to have a sole proprietary right over it? Ok genius, please do educate us on ODL 1 and ODL 2 and the requirements and the theory as enunciated by the ASQR for the same regarding platforms in mixed strike package?

    Now I am keen.



    Good for you that you flew Sea Harrier. Need a medal for that? Did you get forced? Or were you shit scared that like Arun Poonia you would also not return to the deck someday?

    Understand that I am not talking in air ... you know that name which I just posted .. so get the hint.




    Head back, read every post of mine. Get out of your hangover and process. Am I confused about the two, or am I driving in the point of mismatch between the two platforms being flawed to comment on, which, as per @randomradio was based on your post?

    I am pretty sure that the only one peddling bullshit here is you .. because you seem to harp on flying a damn Sea Harrier to give credence to your claim of the ex-CO of Flankers and serving member enroute up the chain, not knowing what he is talking about when he says he has data fusion available on MKI.

    Or is it that Sunny Leone should be available on demand on the MFD?
     
    Art90 likes this.
  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India
    Now you are getting the gist .. are you usually that thick?

    I did say it is not Airbus 320 my dear sir.


    I know what it does, I may not fly it, but am trained daily on that :D
    That is why did say, Su-30 MKI is NOT A-320.

    Add Embraer .. you just need a damn ipad and you fly (since A-320 has 02 ipads on board ... note how I know that ? :D)
    And so it seems, does Rafale :)
     
  7. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2016
    Messages:
    806
    Likes Received:
    792
    Country Flag:
    India
    Please pick up secure phone, discuss and understand each other in case u can't in public forum..

    I have a soft heart.:) Which is not willing to see the same side Squibble ..
     
  8. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India

    Sigh .. I avoid posting here as a lot of bullshit keeps cropping up ... but then, this time I had to interject here because the AF is increasingly looking at Su-30 MKI's radar to potentiate a mixed strike package with Rafale and Tejas Mk 2 (mind you mk2) .... due to relatvely stronger radars and detection capability ..

    now correct me if I am wrong to presume that IAF will know better as evaluation of Rafale was done prior to this ....

    Or perhaps our members here know better, never having sat in either of the aircrafts cockpit? (I sat in a Su 30 though .. on ground :D)
     
    Sathya likes this.
  9. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India
    Ah it is not a a squabble ..... it is more of a correction in the perspective being pushed.

    Had the narrative been that the rafale gets a generations of options and technology in previously unavailable, I would agree ... but claiming it a better fighter on Radars, RCS and Stand off ranges and using flawed logic to speak about weapons system ... is aberration of informed discussion.

    While at it, we can as well get JF-17 and talk how it will even shoot the F-35 and F55 (not even dreamed up yet) like elsewhere.
     
    Sathya likes this.
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    You need to grow up son and stop this dick measuring exercise here. grow up.

    I have ejected twice from fighters. Once over sea and once over land. The second was from sea Harriers. Arun Poonia was my baccha whom I taught air combat. So do you realise how stupid you are.

    What is your goddamn POV? Are you comparing the data fusion of fighters or weapons and tactics? That's why I told you, learn two things asap, which is your ass and which is your elbow, next which end of the body houses the brain and which end is used for what.
     
  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India
    I don't ..... have I even started on my credentials of 'having done this or that or this lineage or that..' ever? You see, I merely stated to you the sources. And their credentials. Perhaps you may not agree to their concept of data fusion, wherein they have the ability to access all parameters of nav and combat on their MC and have data linking them to other aircrafts in their flight and the AWACs and have real time situational awareness in both voice and data linkage.

    I agree, their definition may differ from yours, but then, for Sea Harrier I would be listening to you and not them, so as an user, I think their opinion has some weight. Or are you measuring your dick now?


    No ... I hope you realise that I am aware of who I am speaking to and of the platforms you have used as you mentioned. Also, of what I am commenting about here.


    Why did you butt in if you could not get the basic .. I was challenging a premise attributed to you and you clarified and I simply asked you why would you post info which would mislead the members?

    Then I challenged the bullshit of 'data fusion not available on MKI'.
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    The MKI has a radar computer, mission computer, EW computer, and they are all independent from each other and then they display all their data to the pilot separately. There is no central unit that can combine all that data like the Rafale and F-35 do.

    Sensor fusion comes in various degrees. You can have what the Typhoon claims is sensor fusion, but it's nowhere close to what's been achieved on the Rafale or F-35.

    The Su-30 requires integrated avionics, and AFAIK, the only Russian jet with this is the PAK FA. Su-35's fusion capability is unknown. The Russians claim it has sensor fusion, and we can give them the benefit of the doubt, but the degree to which sensor fusion works is unknown.

    For both aircraft, I provided regular data. Picdel says the A2A turnaround time of the Rafale is as low as 10 min. If you stick 6 missiles on both aircraft and get them to take off, the turnaround time will be similar. But there will be differences in the number of people used.

    For example, to turnaround Gripen, you need 1 person and 30 minutes. How much time do you need for MKI in the same conditions? AFAIK, it takes 30 minutes to refuel the MKI from empty, while it takes 3 or 4 minutes for the Gripen or Rafale.

    What if there's engine damage? What if the MKI requires engine change alongside Rafale? For Rafale they can change a module in a few minutes, for MKI they need to take the engine out.

    According to regular data, by IAF's admission, the MKI can do 3 sorties a day vs 5 sorties on Rafale. This number can change depending on how long or how far you fly etc. If you want to send the Rafale out on a 6 hour sortie, it will probably only do 3 sorties a day subject to pilot availability. But if you send the MKI out on 2 hour patrols 200Km away, it will probably be able to do 7.

    Then what about pilot fatigue. We obviously have less pilots. A Rafale is far less tiring to fly than the MKI. If the MKI's WSO is busy crunching data manually, he is also going to get fatigued that much faster. Whereas on the Rafale, the aircraft is doing everything, the pilot is only a tactician, while the Rafale flies, the pilot is the WSO. And he doesn't have to do any number crunching, he is only going to decide how he goes about carrying his task. So at the end of the day, the Rafale pilot is ready to go another round while the MKI "pilots" are going to be too tired for a second mission.

    The MKI has 12 stations while the Rafale has 14. If you want to stick 6 bombs on either aircraft, you need to work on only 2 stations on the Rafale while you need to work on 6 different stations on the MKI. If we assume it takes 10 minutes to work on each station by 1 person, and I have only person to rearm and refuel the aircraft, I will take 20 minutes to rearm the Rafale and 5 more minutes to refuel it. I will take 60 minutes to rearm the MKI and another 30 minutes to refuel it. So that's 25 minutes on the Rafale vs 1.5 hours on the MKI. Now, bring in wear and tear, battle damage etc the time required starts favouring Rafale.

    Turnaround times are all mission specific and you need to consider how many people you have left during the course of the war. At the beginning of the war, MKI and Rafale may generate the same sorties. But by the end of two weeks, the Rafale will be able to sustain higher sorties due to its easier maintenance and smaller logistics footprint.

    All these aspects matter in the 3 hour vs 30 minute calculation.

    Even though every single parameter necessary for air to air combat is Rafale's advantage?

    The Rafale has higher TWR, it has higher climb rates, it can accelerate faster, it can sustain more Gs, as much as 11. Every single sensor on the Rafale is better than what's on the MKI. All the weapons on the Rafale are better.

    Mig-21MF: 3m2. Mig-21 Bison should be a few times smaller.
    Rafale: <0.1m2. Electronically, as low as 0.001m2 with weapons.

    Unfortunately, Meteor is ready today while the PD is a paper missile.

    But IAF is mulling the introduction of Meteor on MKI. So that's a bit of an equalizer there. But MBDA has to accept that.
     
    vstol jockey and Hellfire like this.
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    The T-90 can fire at a target from 8Km away. Now how many times are you going to use this ability in a real war?
     
    vstol jockey likes this.
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    Sensor fusion is not networking. As for networking, you can do it, it's not difficult as long as you have enough ToT, which I'm sure we have on the MKI and we will get for the Rafale in time.
     
    Sathya likes this.
  15. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2016
    Messages:
    806
    Likes Received:
    792
    Country Flag:
    India
    Good Infos are getting discussed .. Very little we know about sensor fusion & netwrking ...

    I'm interested if Su30 is going to do the Duty as Awac & buddy tanker, to team up with Rafale & LCA mk2 .

    Is that the reason we are not buying awacs & tankers ?
     
    PARIKRAMA likes this.

Share This Page