Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

Tags:
  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    @Hellfire

    In your own words, can you explain what's data fusion and what's networking.

    Also, ask your contact these two questions:
    -If the Rafale has a RCS that's as much as 500 times smaller than the MKI while both are carrying A2A missiles, which aircraft has the advantage?

    -And can the MKI's fusion combine the best data from the radar (range) and best data from the IRST (angle) and combine the two automatically to generate a far more accurate track than if the two systems were used independently?
     
    vstol jockey likes this.
  2. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India

    Data is from multiple sources.

    Read up ODL Phase 2.

    There is only limited information in public domain.

    These are my last words on this topic .... I am sure you have the figures and parameters at the back hand ... I grant you and others that. But what I still challenge and challenged is the contention you had posted.
     
    Sancho likes this.
  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India

    Again there has been no head to head comparison done in full spectrum for either aircraft. Whatever one may claim.

    If you were to say that Rafale gets a generational upgrade in terms of tech, I grant. The advantage primarily being a dynamic upgrade ability over the next couple of decades whereas MKI is nearing it's ability.

    What I do not grant is the contention that in BVR it bested MKI .... that data has neither been collected yet, nor has been collated. That is off till Rafale is in IAF hands permanently.
     
  4. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    7,574
    Country Flag:
    India
    Consider a simple scenario

    4 Rafales
    4 Mk2
    8 MKI

    out of 8 MKI - position 4 as active emitters with 2 as Mini awacs

    you are left with 4 MKI

    let the 4 each of Rafales, Mk2 and MKI do their job.. silently .. passive mediums interconnection via ODL 2

    In the back you have multiple stream for information from ground based, AWACS and Aerostats ..

    The too and fro communication and link should help enough for all the participants...

    Its as simple as one of the possibilities... rest all whatever we delve is a challenge..

    oh one thing..
    MKI active at high altitude
    MKI passive also high altitude
    MK2 mid altitude
    Rafales low ingress

    .. What MKI sees via ODL P2 is information from all mediums
    upload_2017-11-26_12-35-47.png

    This is basically what Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) is about...

    upload_2017-11-26_12-42-46.png

    and in case any one Rafale goes active
    [​IMG]

    The same intraflight data will be going back to ODL P2 to WSO MKI

    oh on topic of French pilots taking a spin
    it was Garuda 5 over Rajasthan . 2 french pilots - one in WSO role in MKI and another in Mig 27. 4 Indian pilots in back seats of Rafale ... What they discussed and agreed is beyond this forums purview.. Lets just say both talked about something which is a good strategy against flanker or swarm of flankers and a potent modern western fighter or a swarm of it.. Sniffing, detecting, Jamming , engaging and higher mission success rates..

    few more years and this scenario will be out in open with more tangible data......
     
    Bali78, dadeechi, Art90 and 10 others like this.
  5. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India
    @randomradio

    There you have your ODL 2 .. the broad contours. Now tell me you were aware of it?

    Try and find out its capabilities. And yes my dear sir, it (MKI) is integrated into it, providing a level of network centric and real time situational awareness not available to IAF till about 2015.

    And I mentioned ASQR mentioning MKI supporting the Rafale due to relatively stronger and better Radar. The ODL 2 was quantified to be seamlessly integrated into Rafale so that 'Flankers' and 'Rafale' and 'TEJAS MK 2' talk to each other in mixed strike package. (again Tejas Mk 2, please note)

    As for sensor fusion .. in MKI when I said Mc1 and MC2 allow all data of Nav and Combat to be fused and presented, where did it come across as separation of data as collated and presented from sensor input?

    Sensors also generate a data for the Mission Computer to integrate into the overall Battlespace Awareness. What did you miss? Or the does a sensor generate something else if not data? :)
     
    BlackOpsIndia likes this.
  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India
    Anyways ... am off this thread, have derailed it quite a lot.

    My apologies for the same :)


    PS: Honestly, how many members can truthfully claim to have been aware of ODL 2 and integration here?
     
  7. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India

    There is lot that is not generally in public domain and hence am still getting 'apparently' trounced :D

    Come and revisit this site and my statements about 5-7 years from today and they will make sense :D


    As for why we are not buying AWACS and Tankers? No funding ... economy took a massive hit with Food Subsidy Bill. Till economic micro and macro indicators are not on an upswing, you will find silly reasons for cancellations being a norm.
     
    BlackOpsIndia and Sathya like this.
  8. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    295
    Rafale vs MKI at least on paper should be an easy win for Rafale.

    • Superior radar resolution, slightly longer ranged, much better EW offense and defense
    • Rafale signature in A2A mode is what? 5m2? MKI comfortably over 15m2
    • Both should detect each other comfortably outside missile engagement range if they are indeed starting from those distances but Rafale clearly has a first look advantage thus giving it better choice of tactics. LPI mode on the Rafale AESA? to avoid radar giving away its position. No such thing for the flying lighthouse BARS.
    • Unclear how this equation works if distances are closer together like in case of Indo-Pak FOB's.
    • MKI has the endurance advantage and can hold AB longer which Rafale could match via drop tanks but at a massive RCS and maneverabilty penalty but being French it naturally has an advantage in 'turn and run'.
    • MKI lacks FSO-TV equivalent thus further hamstrung in discriminating friend/foe in EW heavy environment where IFF are switched off.
    • Active cancellation may work against BARS whose frequency agility is questionable. No question of jamming AESA. AC would certainly beat any Russian active radar missile.
    • Meteor is far superior to any Russian missile making the whole contest moot
    [​IMG]

    My 2¢
     
    Bali78, Sathya, Kane0610 and 2 others like this.
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    @Hellfire

    You are either asking the wrong questions or getting incomplete answers. You are confusing red line limits of aircraft with tactics.

    The Bars radar has some advantages only because of its size. But the RBE-2AA will comfortably beat it in most parameters.

    And when it comes to tactics, in a flight of MKIs and Rafales, the MKIs will provide top cover while the Rafales make a low penetration attack. So naturally, the MKI that's flying higher will see more while the Rafale at low altitude is in its own comfort zone. Here the MKI has two advantages with respect to the radar, one is its size which provides it a smaller beamwidth so it can pick up targets accurately from longer ranges. And the other is the radar can be oriented in a 240 degree angle which will allow it to see much more of the air than the Rafale can, 140 degree. You stick an AESA radar in the MKI with the same advantages, it will easily surpass the Rafale's radar capabilities, but until then they both have very similar capabilities.

    So the MKI's advantages are more evident when it's all about the tactics used. The Su-35 has greater range than both MKI and Rafale simply because it spits out more power, as much as 3-5 times more than the MKI.

    AESA makes too much difference. Against the same target, the F-22 will be able to pick it up at twice the range as the MKI can and can identify the target from much further away.
     
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India

    Oh Pakistan is a write off.

    That is why you find a streak of arrogance in IAF when PAF is being discussed.

    Work on a theoretical mixed package with MKIs and Rafale adding Mig 27s to it ...... with all bells and whistles

    The only place PAF can actually achieve some semblance of resistance will be over sea ----- how? They will fly their aircraft low level to sea away from India from Karachi, gain altitude and then head back ...
    otherwise .. everything taking off from their AFB will be downed there itself.

    May sound jingoistic but that is the level of capability IAF is already at.
     
    Art90, BlackOpsIndia, Sathya and 5 others like this.
  11. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    Country Flag:
    India

    As usual your answers are an avalanche of facts :)

    Thanks

    Am out of it ... but honestly, were you aware of ODL 2? ;)
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    There's nothing around for me to read up, it's all closed source.

    Anyway, since you live on both sides of the coin, let me explain how forums work for people like us living on one side of the coin. The data we get is either disinformation or it's old.

    So when I am talking about Rafale having advanced data fusion while there's none on the MKI, I'm talking about the realities of 2007. You may be living in 2017, but I am living with data before 2010.

    Now if MKI has caught up with the Rafale of 2007 in 2017, great. But how far do you think the Rafale has traveled in the same time? And if data fusion is being introduced in the MKI now, then how long do you think they will have to wait before it achieves the same level of system maturity on the Rafale in 2017?

    ODL, mixed formations, those enable tactics. It has nothing to do with system specs. Ask those two questions I posted to your contact, you don't have to reveal anything there, but you will get an idea of what I am referring to.
     
    Shekhar Singh, Sathya and PARIKRAMA like this.
  13. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    1,401
    Likes Received:
    1,918
    Country Flag:
    United States
    It's good to know that we can basically trounce the PAF at will, but where do we stand in comparison to the PLAAF (before and after the introduction of Rafales)?
     
    Sathya and PARIKRAMA like this.
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    11,206
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    I don't know anything about ODL-2 specifically, but if it is anything like what the US had during Gulf War, then I naturally anticipated IAF having something like it by now. :D There is a natural tendency for everyone to at least catch up.

    But what I'm talking about is much more than ODL-2, I'm talking about system specs as well. It doesn't matter how advanced the BMS of two T-55s are, a T-90 will eat them both up without any need for networking.

    A MKI and Rafale talking is interesting. A S-400 talking with MKI/Rafale is much more interesting. Now, if the MKI/Rafale can automatically fuse radar data of the S-400 via networking with its own data and then feed that data to another platform, like a missile, that's most interesting.
     
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Country Flag:
    India
    You mentioned words to mean that I got scred of flying fighters when you quoted Poonia. After my second ejection, i had suffered the worst injuries of the two ejections. I was temporarily put down medically and even doctors said at least one year for full recovery but i got back in shape within three months and started flying again. You are well aware that before you leave services, you are again examined medically. I left IN with medical category A1G1.

    Show me one post where I contradicted your data fusion comments. You were posting things about tactics and I tried to clarify to you that you were going off on a tangent as what you were posting is what IAF does not follow. And it was contrary to your posts about data fusion also. An aircraft with highly networked capabilities and outstanding data fusion will rarely ever use its active sensors to acquire a target.
    Only time when we open our radars is during interception. the target identification is done for us by other platforms like AWACS or ground based radars. Even in the enemy territory, we do not open up on our radars and they are kept at hot stand by.
     

Share This Page