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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Let me put it simply
    @randomradio is right and so also @Hellfire

    Data fusion has certain differentials.. like generations...

    MKI is a old men... experienced.. matured.. old gen fundamentals.. so things also are limited.. can spot something from long distance.. and prepare ....

    Rafale is a young 18 year old... learned new things... new gen fundamentals .. lot more advanced concepts.. and information access and flow.. uses more modern tech and thinks a bit differently..

    Take out the WSO and put the whole thing in a screen and into helmet.. in front of your eyes .. its simply that kind of a difference... a dedicated brain is no more needed ... and lot more modern streams of information collected, collated and presented ...

    philosophical but its like this.. generation gap of information and fusion meaning...
     
  2. Kane0610

    Kane0610 FULL MEMBER

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    Thanks for the information @PARIKRAMA. Could you also share few links/sources on ODL Phase 1 and 2, where we can read more about it if available?
     
    Sathya, zebra7 and PARIKRAMA like this.
  3. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Shud we be even talking about them here? Posting that kind of data ona forum like this is most stupid in my opinion.
     
  4. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Yeah I agree, our discussion both mine & hellfire disagreement on Advantage 5 Rafale Vs MKI in BVR by @randomradio is over & stands SETTLED.

    ADMIN - Can we delete all yesterday night & today posts - too much information which ought not to be.. not to mention distasteful words added to mix as well.
     
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  5. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    There is no information that is not open sourced. However if all participating members desire will clean up posts so far.

    As for disagreement ... well .. the members in question : @randomradio a membet I truly respect for volume of facts he can offload in any post in a sharp frame of time. My interaction with him in no way affects that respect and regard for him. Heck ... most of members like him I tag in as their info on specs is awesome and par excellence :D

    As for @vstol jockey ... any matter pertinent to flying ... I respect him for it. I would still seek his comments on that field. Anyday. My interaction with him, howsoever apparently 'wordy' in no way either diminishes my respect for him as an aviator or as a veteran either.

    :D I have had the best of professional working relationships with those who I could violently disagree with.
     
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  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    Search the net. I doubt anyone can comment on it more than has been posted.

    Mind you .. all is open sourced
     
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The fact that he mentioned ODL 2 in an open forum alone is almost crossing the line.

    Always let time speak for military technology.
     
  8. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Thanks ... :) everyone for stepping down a bit.

    Much better closure to the discussion than anything we had seen so far.

    @Hellfire at one hand you suggesting Tejas will be left to die slowly, on the other about new team member Mk2 in quotations ..

    Hint is on positive aspect or negative?
     
  9. Kane0610

    Kane0610 FULL MEMBER

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    Apologies. I did not understand the sensitivity of the topic. The reason I asked because it was brought up and discussed in the forum today.
     
  10. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @Hellfire @randomradio @vstol jockey @PARIKRAMA

    Many Thanks for this very engaging and absorbing discussion

    I was Busy Following and enjoying the Pakistani Situation :cheesy: ; Silly me

    Please Tag me next time when you Guys are discussing such High End stuff
     
  11. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    There are different kinds of data fusion.

    The simplest is what we could call data superposition. Sensor 1 sees a track, sensor 2 sees a track, let's display both on the same screen for the pilot to see them together. This is basically step 1 of sensor data fusion, the simplest form you can develop before moving further, and it has historically been the first type to be created. The drawback is that when two sensors see the same track, it'll appear duplicated.

    Then you have track data fusion. A computer collates the track data from all sensors, identifies if two tracks from two different sensors are actually the same, and then display the processed result.

    Finally, there is raw data fusion. Sensors no longer process their own data to give out tracks, they just send their raw data and let a single computer handle everything. This is extremely complex because you need to combine all your sensor software into the same program. Obviously IRST feed isn't processed the same way as radar feed. And each time you add or upgrade a sensor, you need to rewrite the central data fusion software.

    Now one word on networking. Data links, especially secure encrypted data links, have rather limited bandwidth. For networked data fusion, you also need to take into account factors like the position of the sensors you receive and the latency, so all data packets need to be stamped with metadata indicating the position and time at which they were sent. You also need to be able to work with missing or corrupted packets.

    If you want networked data fusion, you'll be limited to the first two types. Something like Link-16 was designed to transmit track data, and not much more than that. For the third type, you need enormous broadband. Stuff like the F-35's MADL might give you the broadband you need for networked raw data fusion, but then you have to keep in mind that MADL comes with its own limitations too. It's a short range system meant to allow communications between up to four aircraft of a same flight group, that's all. Networking is therefore why even if you have a raw data fusion system, you need to be able to handle track data fusion too.
     
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  12. Hindustani78

    Hindustani78 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I dont think that United States Adm will give anything without keeping the national interest because of the lifes of US Military personnels matters the most and to keep up the International mechanism in United Nations certain countries are completely violating UN Charter. The talk here will be more about the world peace and security in which United States of America will decide along with the Alliance who are fighting along with them shoulder to shoulder unlike those nations who get everything in free in the name of humanity but are the worst human rights violaters. And here Alliance means nations who are not inside NATO too and in reality they are the ones who are fighting at fronts and even feeding worstless nations.

    F 16 are still playing the vital role in insuring peace in NATO member states but giving F 16's means maintenance depots, pilot training, fuel and ammunition supplies and here these powerful nation will even ask for software sharing without placing US military protocols and here they think that US Military Generals would even consider them . Certain Ex Warsaw Pact countries think that US and Ukrainian Military doesnt understand who are creating problems for them and United States of America position in UN and UNSC. F 16's main frames and Engine over haulling are being done by Republic of Turkey and even Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. TAI produced 46 F-16s for the Egyptian Air Force between 1993 and 1995 under the agreement signed between the Governments of Turkey, USA and the Arab Republic of Egypt.
     
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  13. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    AFAIK, LM proposed to shift its only production line to India but will not shift its F-16 support logistics Hub to India...
    If India receive F-16 production line than it'll help in making decisions that who will receive further F-16 (more international orders are very unlikely) but India will not have any control over spares to other Nations including Pakistan.
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    That's a misconception, especially if only limited to the MKI we inducted 13 years ago. More important is the comparison of the coming upgrade and the Rafale, which will be on more equal terms on technology.

    We know that the radar will be upgraded, most likely with AESA, or a PESA upgrade similar to IRBIS-E which puts the MKI in clear advantage in terms of radar detection.

    We also know that it has IRST, while the Rafale doesn't have that capability now. So an MKI can passively search for enemies up to 90Kms aways, but a Rafale limited to MICA IR seekers for IRST capability can detect enemies only up to 30Kms distances.

    We also know that the airframe will be overhauled and RCS reductions similar to latest Russian Flankers and Mig upgrades will be applied (composites and RAM coatings, deleting canards?). Add that to the fact that the MKI doesn't need to carry external fuel tanks and you have a good operational RCS.

    =>

    Upgrade MKI in possible A2A config:

    4 x BVR missiles
    2 x WVR missiles
    2 x EW pods

    Same config for Rafale:

    2 to 3 x 1150l supersonic fuel tanks
    4 x BVR missiles
    2 x WVR missiles

    So while the clean Rafale has a RCS advantage, an operational config will increase it's RCS by far. The MKIs clean RCS on the other side, is only effected by the added weapons.

    An upgraded MKI therefore should have a clear advantage in radar and IRST detection capabilities, especially with it's higher service ceiling.

    A Rafale F3R can't keep up in these fields, but actually complements the MKI with it's own advantages, if both can be linked.

    An active MKI at high altitude, can guide a passive Rafale at lower levels and provide target data. The Rafale then can ID the target at long range, with the FSO TV channel and engage it, at longer distances with MICA IR or Meteor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The issue is not generation, but the number of available sensors and the ability to put it in a combined picture.

    A Rafale F3R has radar, MICA IR, RWR and IR MAWS sensors, to gather info's.

    The current MKI has radar, IRST, RWR as sensors and will be upgraded with new RWR and IR MAWS too

    So the amount of available data won't be that much different, the question is only on how it will be combined and that's where the tag line sensor fusion comes from.

    One could also add that we know that the upgraded MKIs, get a new cockpit too, with 2 large scale displays, which should give advantages to the Rafale cockpit as well.

    P.S. Shouldn't we move this discussion to the MKI thread?
     
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