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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    As an observer, IMHO, your procurement strategy is a mess. Not because of the aircraft you're picking but because of the number of different types you're operating. I appreciate the need to have some Russian and some western because of not being able to rely on the west against Pakistan and not being able to rely on Russia against China but really I would aim for just two types. Su-30 and one western aircraft (F-16 or whatever) and then look to phase out the Su-30s and replace them with PAK-FAs later down the line. That way you save money on training, logistics, spares, weapons integration (with further savings in weapons procurement) etc. And you save on time/money with contract negotiations. You really don't want to be running a pic 'n' mix air force with half a dozen or more types. And now that I weigh up the need for carrier jets, I'm thinking F-18SH + Su-30 and perhaps AV-8B+ if you really need a VSTOL capability. That way you get a harmonised air force and save yourself a shed-load of trouble.
     
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  2. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Pal, Think i pretty much implied the same though except in not in so many words! :yes4:
     
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  3. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I would also add, don't be too concerned with numbers, numerical superiority does not guarantee success and there are several examples of that in history. Better to procure a slightly smaller, but more efficient and more lethal air force.
     
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  4. seiko

    seiko VETERAN FULL MEMBER

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    We should have gone for Eurofighter as our second line of fighters. With their production line almost closing down, they would have agreed to every thing we have asked including making us partners in their future development and also complete ToT.. :wub:
     
  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Technology can only help overcome part of numerical superiority. It can't help overcome numerical superiority in toto. You will always need a large fleet as long as PLAAF is one of the enemies. We have them next door.
     
  6. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    No single factor guarantees success, but numerical superiority is one of more important factors (only surpassed by pilot proficiency, coordination, on-ground survivability and reliability, and last two tie into numerical superiority). And incidentally, aircraft with characteristics that allow numerous air force will typically have better reliability and on-ground survivability, though that is not always so. Since India's primary enemy is China, and they are also bottled-up by the crazy Islamic Pakistan on the western border, numbers are quite important (along with the factors I have already mentioned). Mere technological superiority (or what I call "fapping at statistics") will not overcome any single of these factors, let alone all of them combined.
     
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    It's fine, we will have multiple ARMs.

    Who knows? But they almost always have equivalents.

    DRDO has something similar coming up.

    That's what makes the Gripen special. Gripen E also uses active cancellation. And they have snuck up behind Typhoons, not from blogs, from a good named source.
     
  8. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Well you don't have to give up numbers completely, but cutting by say 20% won't make a difference if the lethality of the technology increases two-fold. Additionally, by minimising types, you're actually saving money, and can buy increased spares because they're all harmonised. You also save on training. Right now I could name at least 3 or 4 Indian aircraft types that would be completely useless in a war against China and tantamount to target drones.

    Well numerical superiority didn't work for the PLA in the Korean War. The only thing they did well was die. Nor did it work for the Iraqi military in 1991, or in the many Arab-Israeli wars, or Goose Green.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    It can't be helped. We need a jet anyway, and we can't afford only Rafales. Otherwise we would have bought only Rafales. Yeah, it's all 3-4 years later anyway. It's a 10+ year project for both MMRCAs.

    Our revenue budget was set for a 13.5% growth, but we have been growing at less than 10% since 2012. So the govt is working hard to reduce both capital and revenue expenditure, especially the forex part.
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Its always the low cost, high tech, light weight fighter which shows up for duty everyday and does maximum amount of job. 75% of all sorties during gulf wars were flown by F-16s.
    I wud like to disagree a bit here. In Korea and Vietnam, the numerical superiority did play a major role. The US forces had complete numerical superiority.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    That's silly. We've operated more types when we were poorer than we are today.

    No chance. Numbers are only going up.
     
  12. seiko

    seiko VETERAN FULL MEMBER

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    I think we should go for F 16. It will give us lot of strategic and political advantages. US is not going to impose any embrago upon us till China is there. Even if we choose Grippen, the risk of embargo is same as F 16. Also Grippen does not give us any political advantage. Both Turkey and Japan manufacture F 16 without any issues.
     
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    We are not buying the jets for politics. As long as the F-16 is good and the US provides a very good deal, then it will be considered. It simply isn't as advanced as the Gripen though.

    We need jets that will have an upper hand against the PLAAF. The IAF is not planning to send their pilots to their deaths for a bit of political support, which will come anyway.

    The F-16 is a dead design.
     
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  14. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    But are any of them actually effective. Passive homers are outdated now.

    This time they don't.

    Like what?

    LOL. WTF? Gripen Es are still 5 years off IOC, so whoever has told you they sneaked up on Typhoons is lying through their teeth.

    http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ab-pushes-year-end-first-flight-latest-gripen

     
  15. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    So what's wrong with an F-16 then? F-16s weren't really low tech back in 1991 either.

    Nope.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

    In several battles we were massively outnumbered but still came out on top.
     

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