F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

  1. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Bro, Swiss were the first customers, they also got a similar deal. $160M for each jet.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-3-5-billion-jet-order-as-swiss-reject-gripen

    Brazilians came after the Swiss and they got a cheaper deal owing to their greater numbers.
     
  2. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Yes. But bids for the losers were not opened. Only Typhoon and Rafale bids were opened. So the bids for Mig-35, Gripen, F-16 and F/A-18 are unknown.

    We have an idea about the flyaway cost, but that won't give the right comparison with Gripen because Gripen-E was not real at the time. Actual cost is known only after it enters the production cycle.
     
  3. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    What is typically brazilian in the Gripen E/F ?

    Egyptian Rafale are ACTUAL Rafale (same than Frecnh air force minus nuclear deterrence). And all Rafale can easily be upgrade (F2 to actual F3.4, and F3R in 2018).

    Offset... what about Brazilian base accomodation? indigenous Brazilian weapons integration? hot and wet enhancement program?
     
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  4. BON PLAN
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    BON PLAN Captain FULL MEMBER

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    A contract is a deal when the seller AND the buyer firm the contract. The swiss buyer never inked the contract....

    In this way we could say Morocco was the first export customer of Rafale !
     
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  5. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Gripen-E is a new build aircraft with major design changes. So compatibility with earlier versions won't matter.

    I'm 100% sure any new fighter jet deal will come with base accommodation.

    Irrelevant. I have not considered this with Rafale also.

    Brazil
    Without customization: $130M
    With customization: $155M

    India
    Without customization: $200M
    With customization: $250M

    Brazil is getting Gripen F development in the same contract. Brazil is also getting a factory for this price, along with Gripen related ToT. It's incomparable to Rafale deal.

    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/150434/brazil’s-gamble-on-gripen-offsets.html
    But Rafale deal is better for India, than Gripen is for Brazil. The requirement is different.

    But that's why the lower cost of the Gripen is a major threat to Rafale orders in India. As vstol pointed out, Parrikar prefers buying more single engine jets over twin engine because of the price difference.
     
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  6. somedude
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    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The Sea Gripen just became a lot more unlikely: Brazil gives up carrier aviation. The Indian Navy is now the only potential customer for the proposed Gripen M, which means India would have to pay the whole development costs alone.
     
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  7. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    But it is also the only foreign fighter apart from the Mig-29K that can operate from IAC-1 and Vikky. And Gripen-M is going to be catobar compatible as well, which is an advantage over Mig-29K. Both are massive advantages for Gripen.

    If you perform a checklist for carrier compatibility:

    Vikky:
    Gripen, Mig-29K, LSA

    IAC-1
    Gripen, Mig-29K, LSA, SH, F-35C

    IAC-2
    Gripen, LSA, Rafale-M, SH, F-35

    The only jets common for all three carriers are Gripen and LSA.

    But I'm not that big a fan of operating the Gripen from our carriers. If we have to go for an in-development fighter, then LSA is the obvious option.
     
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  8. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    I am tempted to share some very confidential info but will restraint myself. Have you ever heard of force multiplication? Every aircraft other than LSA will result in reduction of air compliment of Vikky and IAC-1. The size of air compliment is one of the biggest factors in deciding the aviation complex on board an aircraft Carrier.
     
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  9. somedude
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    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    I'll point out again that Saab has zero experience in designing carrier jets, and that it'd be cheaper IMO to pay for a slight redesign of the Rafale M to have folding wings than to pay for a large redesign of the Gripen E to have folding wings AND reinforced landing gear AND reinforced arrestor hook AND reinforced overall structure able to withstand controlled crashes.

    You can take a look at the problems specific to the C version of the F-35 to see that the changes required are not trivial. Their biggest problem at the moment being that their landing gear design provokes unacceptable shocks during acceleration, causing the pilot's helmet to bump against the canopy.

    IMO the "safe" choice (where you don't have to pay for any development that might not end up panning out) is MiG-29K for both Viks, and Rafale for IAC-2.
     
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  10. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    Try and look at the CAT launch videos from cockpit. The pilots sit inside with their head rested against seat to ensure that it does not suffer compression and while landing one of the checklist items is "harness locked". That 3G deceleration can break your neck and it gets worst if you are landing at very high speeds due to SLAT/FLAP failure or on single engine. You may have to withstand even -4.5G. Imagine what happens to a pilot in such conditions. Everything flips over, from helmet to oxygen mask.
     
  11. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Don't bother sharing restricted info. Us members knowing a bit more will not help you with your project.

    Anyway, you did say that LSA allows a 25% greater air complement.
     
  12. randomradio
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    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Bro, redesigning the wings is no easy task.
     
  13. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    yes for Vikky and 40% higher for IAC-1. Do you know what this means for a CBG? Battle of Midway, June 1942, one of the biggest reason for sinking of Japanese navy carriers was the short range of their bombers and lack of adequate fighters. One sqn of US Navy flying high got thru and four carriers were sunk. Numbers matter a lot for Navy, the argument of one fighter equal to four does not hold good for CBG operations. You need aircraft on deck and larger number is always better.
     
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  14. vstol jockey
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    vstol jockey Colonel STRATEGIST

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    Density Spot factor analysis is one very important aspect for evaluating the suitability of an aircraft for Carrier operations. RFI does not ask for it. But I did that analysis as IN asked me for it after I made a presentation of LSA to them.
     
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  15. Picdelamirand-oil
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    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel STRATEGIST

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    Not easy task also for Gripen.
     
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