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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    USA is ahead in fighter AESA, but French fighter AESA has better tech.

    When it comes to GaN AESA, the Russians are ahead. The PAK FA is almost ready for pre-production.
     
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Saab made Giraffe-4A in 2014. GaN L band.
    http://saab.com/land/istar/multi-role-surveillance-system/giraffe-4a/

    http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2016/05/saab-claimed-that-its-giraffe-4a-aesa.html

    Russian GaN radars for S-500 are already operational.

    Anyway, in the article I posted Saab was referring to X band radars for fighters.
     
  3. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    This article is dated June 10, 2016 and it said that the delivery will be in 2016,...but we are in 2017 and I haven't seen this delivery.
     
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  4. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    As I mentioned before, they are ready for pre-production, but they don't have orders.

    The Swedish order and Brazilian order for Gripens were done for Selex's radar. They need more export orders in order to start producing this radar. That's why they are offering it to India. And you already know about IST. Minimum 2020.
     
  5. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Well afaik, Thalès is ready to produce GaN based Fighter radar, but it is damn expensive.
     
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  6. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Yeah, it requires a huge amount of orders.

    For example, the Russians plan to release X band GaN with PAK FA, S-500, ship FCRs, missile seekers and a bunch of other projects all at once, so their production numbers are high, making it cheaper.

    France and Sweden can't order in large volumes yet.
     
  7. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    a single word that change everything. Almost.

    Tejas is almost ready until some years....
     
  8. lca-fan

    lca-fan Captain FULL MEMBER

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    We didn't had a clean corruption free Government for ten years 2004 to 2014. We had a CON- gress (disgressful) govt., a real con which was involved in scams after scams under Italian waitress with St. Antony as DM who was least bothered about even shortages of weapons in armed forces, any defence deal was supposed to give that italian waitress a cut and indigenous weapons were looked upon as a crime which prevented their loot. So they tried to scuttle LCA by not providing funds so they can import fighters and earn kick backs. Look at Tejas now just after 2.5 years it has come into production and by 2020 will become a very potent platform with LCA Tejas Mk1a having AESA, EW, IFR, BVR, capabilities. Had Modi govt in power in those 10 years we would have been exporting Tejas to other nations by now and at least 100+ inducted into IAF.
     
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  9. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    DEFENSE ONE


    Sell India F-16s — and Build Them Abroad
    [​IMG]

    • BY JOHN VENABLESENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW AT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATIONREAD BIO
    FEBRUARY 28, 2017


    It’s the right move for the United States, even if it makes the Trump administration uncomfortable.

    Earlier this month, a delegation of U.S. government and business officials flew to New Delhi. Its mission: to reassure the Indian government that the U.S. really wants them to replenish its fighter fleet with F-16s. It’s the right move for a lot of reasons — some of them potentially uncomfortable to the new Trump administration.

    The Indian Air Force is working to replace its aging fleet of third-generation, Soviet-era jets with up to 250 fighters that could defend its interests against China and Pakistan should a conflict arise. Late last year, India agreed to purchase 36 French Rafales, but most of its new fighter-jet orders will be filled through a competition between the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen and America’s F-16 Fighting Falcon.

    Performance and cost will help determine the outcome, but the Indian government has also stipulated that the winner will also have to commit to producing the fighter in India. It’s a precondition that may not sit well with Trump administration officials focused on preserving American jobs. But sealing a fighter deal would be an important step in strengthening U.S.-India ties. That’s desirable because the two countries share both democratic values and a growing geopolitical concern about China.

    Last year, President Obama declared India its first “Major Defense Partner,” the latest development in a defense relationship that grew steadily closer over the past two U.S. administrations. Selling them the F-16 would be another concrete demonstration of America’s commitment to this vital strategic relationship. And solidifying India’s role as a major defense partner will go a long way toward keeping that region of the world in balance.

    Performance and Cost

    The original JAS 39 Gripen, designed by SAAB in the 1980s and initially fielded in the late 1990s, was a fourth-generation multirole fighter. The JAS 39E, which first flew in 2008, is a significantly improved version. The E-model boasts an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, a robust sensor package that includes Infrared Search and Track (IRST), and a processor that allows real-time data fusion. The jet reportedly costs $85 million a copy, roughly the same as the projected price tag for the stealth F-35A when it enters full-rate production.

    The Gripen’s competition is Lockheed’s 4+-generation F-16 Block 70, a variant of the Block 60 developed for and sold to the UAE. Thanks to more than $3 billion in UAE-funded research and development, the new F-16 has a fiber-optic data bus that can handle a thousand times more information than its predecessor. With an estimated price tag of $55 million, the Block 70 also has an AESA radar, an internal IRST, and fuselage-hugging conformal fuel tanks that free up wing stations for more weapons.

    Other factors that India will consider include cost per flight hour and the logistics for acquiring munitions and major subcomponents made outside the country. The Swedish-designed Gripen, for example, is powered by U.S.-made General Electric motors, and its munitions will come from both American and European suppliers. This makes the logistics a bit more complicated for SAAB’s candidate.

    But the Gripen costs $4,700 per flight hour, far lower than the F-16’s $7,000 hourly rate. That may be enough to even out the initial price difference between the two competitors over time.


    Both jets are solid performers and, like Gripen, Lockheed has offered to produce or even move the F-16 production line to India. In the end, the decision will likely come down to logistics and the military-to-military relationship—both factors that favor the F-16. But the production line move may become a sticking point in the U.S.


    Producing the F-16 in India

    Both the JAS 39 and the F-16 have already been either assembled or produced outside their countries of origin. But the impending closure of the F-16’s production line in Fort Worth complicates matters.

    The U.S. Air Force bought its last F-16 in 1997. Since then, the production line has been sustained solely by foreign military sales. Unfortunately, those sales have dwindled in the last several years due to global competition and a vacillating U.S. policy on foreign military sales.

    Bahrain and Taiwan, which both operate the F-16, have petitioned the U.S. to allow them to buy more, but those sales were thwarted by the Obama administration. With no other purchase in the works, Lockheed Martin plans to shut down the line at year’s end.

    Lockheed can’t win the contract unless President Trump, who won his election on a buy-American platform, allows F-16 production to move, at least in part, to India. But if the Trump administration blocks the move, New Delhi will likely buy the Gripen and the Fort Worth production line will close as scheduled — and that will dim the futures of some 450 American manufacturers and businesses that supply F-16 parts.

    Maintaining F-16 production in India would help shore up those companies. Over time, some of those jobs may also shift from the United States to India, but the complexities of production and the sheer number of independent suppliers will leave room for negotiations and decision space on the best way for both countries to fulfill this deal.

    Finally, New Delhi’s fighter decision will also affect the United States’ global security posture. A U.S. victory would bolster our bilateral alliance and improve India’s military capacity, capability, and interoperability with U.S. forces. This would help balance Chinese assertiveness without requiring a greater U.S. military footprint in the region.

    This is a golden opportunity for the new administration. By approving this sale and allowing India to produce the F-16, President Trump would strengthen our global security posture, bolster our relationship with India, and save American jobs that would otherwise be lost if and when the last F-16 rolls off the line in Fort Worth.[​IMG]

    • A 25-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force, John Venable is a senior research fellow in The Heritage Foundation’s Center for National Defense and a contributor for Heritage’s 2017 Index of Military Strength
    http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/02/sell-india-f-16s-and-build-them-abroad/135755/

    Interesting
    Flyaway prices
    RAFALE Euro 91Mn or $95.5Mn (from Indian deal)

    GRIPEN E $85Mn
    F16 Block 70 $55Mn

    LCA Mk1A around $40-45Mn or may be more..

    Few pointers
    1. CPFH article was sponsored in Jane's and when it quoted $4700 and showed Rafale as $16000 , it was proved clearly that Rafale CPFH is in fact $9700 as per FrAF and will be much lower for IAF.
      • This is bcz IAF CPFH for Mirages were $3000 whereas it's much more internally for FrAF.
      • In the same calculation MKI CPFH was quoted as $12000
      • A best guesstimate for Rafale CpFH as per IAF should be approximately $6000 (twice of mirages) or less
      • These numbers were quoted by HAL chief in aero india 2013
      • So CPFH bogey is absolutely ludicrous
    2. About munitions
      • We operate Mirages and already have MICA and other French munitions
      • With Rafale we just expanded the weapons profile even more
      • The weapons are more common for Gripen as they are also cleared for Israeli Derby Python combo like Rafale.
      • F16 munitions will be a challenge as it will be completely new to Indian pool unless they also operate Derby Python combo and perhaps just one LR BVR of Aim120D and later..
      • The munitions will be a pain
    3. The article again does NT mention on comprehensive life cycle opex related costing..
    4. Also not included is customization and performance packages costing.

    But a good idea of how it costs..

    Personally
    1. When Gripen E cost is same almost of Rafale better buy Rafale as it gives you a far better performance, MII, customization cost sunk with already ordered batch, and fleet commanality over introduction of a new varaint and all costs again..
    2. F16 in a way at $55 Mn will kill subsequent MK1A orders and development..
      • This will also mean end of line for homegrown Kaveri powered LCA numbers subsequently
      • The F16 order will be more bargained in favour of US jobs being protected and tech transfer being Senate monitored..Again assembled from kit and limited localisation..
    Enjoy the whole song and dance..
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Personally, I'm convinced that the Gripen is much, much cheaper than Rafale.

    And Gripen will have the same cost advantages as Rafale in India once enough orders are placed.
     
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  11. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    I agree with most of it but if its just kit integration for F-16s then its not for India. It needs to be made in India from scratch.

    I do think that MK-II is the main competitor for F-16's but they still can co-exist. India has a requirement for over 350+ aircraft. These will require at least 10-12 years even if both fighter are being produced at the rate 15 aircraft annually. Realistically, That should be the time for Su 30 replacement program with FGFA or AMCA in supporting role. For now, numbers are important.
     
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  12. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    OMGZ! It hasn't flown yet!!!
     
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  13. ReddyMan

    ReddyMan FULL MEMBER

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    Trump will never allow a meaningful ToT or assembly plant move for F-16s or F-18s during his tenure.

    Gripen E won't be ready until 2024, far too late.

    More Tejas forthcoming it seems. Hopefully with Kaveri engines.
     
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  14. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Captain Technical Analyst

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    It's somewhat cheaper because it offers far inferior outright performance, you get what you pay for.

    I'm not convinced it is as cheap as the Swedes want us to believe though (they are quoting absurd life cycle costs).

    + remember, the Rafale costs quoted are AFTER all Indian specific upgrades and "goodies" are applied, the Blk.70 and Gripen E haven't even begun to have such "extras" added to their base price, what Dassualt has quoted for the upgrades the IAF has requested may cost many times more if done by SAAB or LM for their respective a/c. We are very far away from comparing apples and apples here.

    Remember this is an overt propoganda piece with one overt goal (pushing the F-16), they are deliberatly misleading and presenting a very one-sided picture.
     
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  15. lca-fan

    lca-fan Captain FULL MEMBER

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    If Gripen cost comes down to 55 million dollars the same as that of f-16 then it would be a good deal then.
     

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