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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    There are no tech specs for all three.

    F-16V is an electronics upgrade for older aircraft.

    F-16B70 and IN are pretty much the same. They don't exist yet, but will be similar to B60.
     
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  2. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    The reason I asked was if Block 60-62 for UAE is concerned then we will get the updated avionics, jamming, trageting pod and most importantly new data bus. But will result in increase in cost of F16 since UAE funded the $3 billion dollar investment. the F-16 V is more like an upgrade package for existing customers. The IN ones already had the AN/AGP 80 upgraded EW suite, new engine and CFT.

    I have heard a rumor that UAE version will cost India somewhere between $10-20 million more per aircraft. In my opinion, that will be foolish and doesn't justify F16's for India; rather India can fund a new development or outright buy their rights (since I believe their numbers in IA can reach 150+).
     
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  3. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    F-16 is a waste of time for India. It's simply not suited for the IAF. If the IAF really wants a SE import, the only choice is the Gripen.

    And speaking about costs for an Indian version of the F-16 is premature.
     
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  4. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    I would absolutely HATE to have Grippen in IAF colors. They bring problems to the table and not solutions. They and their lackluster offers fail in cost, features, TOT, integration and most importantly experience. When i say experience i mean a couple things
    1. Future upgrades
    This current version E is pegged from the commitment from Brazil at around $5 billion. Thus making brazilian market their home. TOT was their condition as well which was met by making certain parts there and only there.
    If india needs to do future upgrades the for engine it will have to look to GE (usa), avionics thales (norway), radar leonardo-finmecca (italy- banned) and much more.

    2. Competition and not complementary
    Lets be clear Tejas MK II at best will equal Grippen-E. They both use the same powerplant which puts them in a head to head competition. Tejas will become the second best and then IAF as we all know won't support the program or will just in name not in orders. It will suffocate our own industry.

    Just to make it more clear, F16 is the only platform that can bring the highest TOT for MII. This helps our indigenous industry. As I have mentioned before numbers are more important than anything at the moment. F16's affordability just makes it more important.
     
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  5. drunken-monke

    drunken-monke SENIOR MEMBER

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    Could you elaborate, apart from assembling kits of F16, which tech would be transferred to India??
     
  6. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Gripen. I know, phonetically in English it'd be written Grippen to get a short i (as in grip) instead of the long i (as in gripe); but it's not an English word.



    The F-16 is an old platform that has nothing to bring to India. Every upgrade to it comes from third parties -- the AESA radar is by Northrop Grumman for example. All you'd get from LockMart is an outdated airframe; the actual high-tech components, engine and avionics, would still be Made in USA. It's no different from the situation with the Gripen, except the Gripen is at least a recent airframe which has still room to grow.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Bro, Gripen beat Rafale in at least two occasions. That's a pretty big achievement even if cost was a major factor. The aircraft beat Rafale on its own merit, not politics.

    Anyway, except for the engine, most of the electronics will be Swedish or even Indian. For example, the radar won't be Italian, it will be Swedish.

    LM is not in a position to even transfer an assembly line to India because of Trump.
     
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  8. AbRaj

    AbRaj Captain FULL MEMBER

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    "Nothing is free" you have to pay for every thing you want/need.
    Dole outs are for small countries like Packi-stan, not for a self respecting countries.
    No one in India going to compromise its independent foreign policy just for few vantage era fighter jets.
    It will be extremely dangerous for India

    IMO F16 deal would be the worst deal(in its current form) India could get.Only this assured with this deal is "superior pilot skills" :wink:
     
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  9. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    Thats auto correct on my phone. Thanks for correcting it.

    I don't think Gripen as such can grow without the help from indian orders. If I take a look on they previous deals they are leasing the aircraft in most cases to smaller nations. Brazil is the only foriegn one to buy the Gripen E. This integrated version Gripen E pitched to India is yet to have its first flight.

    I am not sure what you meant by recent airframe; honestly its basically Tejas with small delta wing and canards. It does has less drag and a better maneuverability. But thats where its advantages end.
     
  10. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Are you sure? no operational swedish AESA radar exists now. If, why Swedish AF didn't ordered it?
     
  11. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    I don't care if it beats Rafale. I am not interested in India's invasion of France and hopefully neither is GoI. @BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil (Please do comment )

    I think the basic problem is we haven't "defined" THE PROBLEM.

    IAF's concern:
    1. Dwindling numbers of fighters
    2. Needs a proven air-frame to take over responsibility from phased out aircraft.
    3. Needs additional air frames to work on the expanding responsibility.
    4. prefers (wants) a foreign platform especially French

    GoI's Delimma:
    1. Needs Technology or ToT
    2. Should be part of MII.
    3. Affordable

    DRDO's drivers:
    1. Want more orders and ready to expand with more production lines
    2. Fully focused on Mk1A development
    3. Key developments for MK II still not fruitful so understands that another platform will be procured to supplement.
    4. N-LCA is not lucrative but burden.

    Please run your preference through these points and come to your conclusion.

    I don't mind if its Rafale either @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA .
     
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  12. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The F-16 was designed in the early 1970s to be very light and maneuverable, and also very cheap so that thousands of the type could be procured. The whole USAF "high/low mix" doctrine; the high-end fighters were the F-15. Other than the new flight-by-wire system, the F-16 did not have even then the best avionics available -- for stuff such as long-range radars and the like, they could just be teamed with an AWACS and a few F-15s. Since then, they have been upgraded with a ton of equipment, which has made heavier and largely negated the benefits of their initial aerodynamic formula.

    The Gripen was designed in the late 1980s to be Sweden's single multirole fighter, gradually replacing the older Draken (retired in 1999) and Viggen (retired in 2005). Since it was not part of a "high/low" mix it was meant from the beginning to be Sweden's high-end aircraft, able to operate on its own without the support of heavier, mightier fighters. Concepts such as sensor data fusion and networked environments, which American propaganda try to make you believe are an American invention nobody ever thought of before the F-35, were present in the minds of the Saab designers when they worked on the Gripen; because they needed a way to make this aircraft good enough to deter a much stronger neighbor (Russia) from attacking. Finally, the Gripen E/F, or Gripen NG as it was originally called, is an evolution of the Gripen, made larger to address some of the Gripen's flaws (such as short range on a very small fuel reserve) and accommodate the latest upgrades in avionics.

    To match that, the F-16 would have to have had a redesign -- and one nearly happened, with the F-16XL, but it was rejected in favor of modernizing the F-15 design instead. The F-16 is still using an aerodynamic formula that made sense for a light fighter in the 1970, but it's been saddled with so much new equipment that it's now a medium fighter. It no longer has any room to grow for future requirements and equipment. It's a dead end. Why do you think the USAF hasn't procured any new F-16 since 1998?

    Buying F-16 now is ten different kinds of stupid. For a purchase of F-16 to make sense, you need to fit the following requirements:
    1. No ambition to develop domestic aeronautic industries
    2. No compunction against being fully dependent on US support to fly the aircraft
    3. No real threats from well-equipped neighbors
    4. No money to afford better aircraft

    So, if you're a country like, I dunno, Hungary, then it might make sense to get second-hand F-16 to replace soviet-era MiGs. But for India, no, that's the worst decision you could ever make. And even then, if it were just an interim purchase of second-hand models to keep some squadrons flying for five years max while Tejases are being produced, okay; but actually producing these dinosaurs in India to fly them new and get saddled with these outdated turkeys for decades? Please get more sense than that.

    IMO the only thing that makes sense wrt. the whole SEMII stuff is to use it as pressure to get HAL to produce the Tejas at an acceptable speed, then just let the negotiations die and forget about procuring a foreign single engine plane. But if a foreign plane has to be actually procured: don't get the F-16. Get something better, more modern, and less attached to Uncle Sam's strings.
     
  13. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    India will sign a contract only in 2020 or 2021 and get the first aircraft only in 2023 or 24.

    Is 7 years not enough? They can even develop a new radar by then.
     
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The best option is LSA. Everything else is simply a waste of time and money.
     
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  15. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    LSA needs to be an option in the first place, and that's another issue entirely. It's largely up to vstol jockey to create at least a tech demonstrator.

    As a little history lesson: Dassault Aviation's first aircraft, the Ouragan, was developed on Marcel Dassault's own funds, without a governmental contract. Once a prototype existed, then the contracts came, and he sold it to France, India, and Israel.
     

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