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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

  1. Flyboy!

    Flyboy! Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Let me add to that... It took 14 months to roll out the first prototype, of course, without cad and CFD.
     
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  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Your advice is being acted upon already.
     
  3. IndiranChandiran

    IndiranChandiran BANNED BANNED

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    After experiencing what the LCA development has put them through , I doubt whether the MoD or any of the users would be in an experimental mood.Add to that the fact that this is purely a design concept , a pragmatic one but a design concept nonetheless .Then you have institutional jealousy to cater to.Do you think ADA or DRDO will entertain any competition much less welcome it ?

    The IAF has a pressing urgent need to replace the AC they're mothballing now.The LSA in case it materialises would take a good 5-7 years to get into production stage .

    It's handling the deficit in these 5-7 crucial years that's got the MoD , IAF and the GoI worried .Post that you may have the Rafale , the Su 30MKI , the FGFA and even the Mk2 in good nos.

    What chance if any does the LSA have ?
     
  4. shaktimaan

    shaktimaan Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    same time for f-16 and gripen .......and lca is India's purely first attempt in fighter jets sector , so problems that arised was not a big deal ..
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Yup that's the plan.
     
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  6. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    All answers in the LSA thread.
     
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  7. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    They can. Or not. See the Captor E exemple.
     
  8. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Indeed, but it was another time. To developp a fighter costs far less than today. Just see how many prototyps were built in France or USA.
    Now a fighter is a so complex object that it cost a lot.
     
  9. PeegooFeng41

    PeegooFeng41 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Well, IIRC a certain Colonel with his mathematician friend once changed the entire paradigm of air fighters back in 1960s-70s. Never under-estimate the power of radical thought, big strides are often made by non-usual actors. If you follow the usual pattern you will only get the next sequence in progression.

    From where I come from, they force people to work under impossible constrains (abliet artificial). Almost no one survives more than six months to an year. But those who do are indeed path breaking. I found that the worse the constrains are, the more innovative you get, to the point of even surprising yourself. Best part is, you do not need too many such radicals to succeed. A few in a two or three decade are enough.
     
  10. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Sure but most of the complexity comes from avionics nowadays. For a tech demonstrator, he doesn't need to have weapon systems, radars, IRST, RAM coating, missile rails, and all that stuff. He just needs an airplane that demonstrates that the aerodynamic formula works and that there is room for all the niceties. If the tech demonstrator flies without breaking apart when performing a basic aerobatic maneuver, then a govt contract may come and there's serious money to develop a prototype with all the expensive avionics and related mechanics.
     
  11. PeegooFeng41

    PeegooFeng41 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I believe, they will also need to measure and establish basic RCS of the design and prototype without any RAM coatings etc.
     
  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I bow to you for explaining it very correctly. I am going ahead with developing precisely the TD with a difference. The aircraft will be a full combat aircraft with most of its sensors as exact replica of the actual sensors including wiring done for those sensors. But it will have every other system in it to make it fly properly. I will prove my design and my calculations about RCS, bay door operations, weapon deployment from bays, weapon separation from pylons, TWR, ITR, STR, Range and other parameters with that TD. And the day I prove it, I will just need to replace the dummy sensors with actual sensors to convert the aircraft into a real prototype. With a sensor package already harmonised and fully integrated, I do not foresee any problem in actual firing tests to prove the complete equipment.
     
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    You can gauge the RCS for full metal structure and thereafter convert it to composite structure with RAM and get very accurate readings. Plus, a metallic structure will be flown against the radars present today and the values will be noted for detection range to confirm the actual RCS of the aircraft in real flight. That is what I want to do for LSA.
     
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  14. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    Yours is a well written piece. I applaud you and will recommend this to @Agent_47 for consideration. Since it does has flaws and major ones I would like to respond.

    To be honest, I didn't wanted the F-16 at first; the problem was Pakistan has it so they can predict our capability. Even if this production line shift, India will control the security clearance of new F-16. The sale of previous versions of F-16 (used ones) are still under US administration who will allow pakistan to buy to strike a balance. This negates all the advantage that F-16 brings to the table. But refer to my post "F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities" as to why it is the solution of my choice. I will go through your answer paragraph by paragraph below.

    F-16 is a solution from 70's and Gripen is from 80's. This is true but let me add two more aircraft to the mix so we understand the situation. First one is rafale, the french rafale is a 80's design which was developed frequently till 1991 (end of cold war) and then put on the back burner. The other one is LSA, it is based on HF-24 marut, 50's design. Here is your 'design based on year' argument.

    I would give you that F-16's when built at first were for a multi-purpose role and efficiency was not a major factor (or not oven one). In 1980's, US knew that delta wing was the future since the delta wing not only the deliver the efficiency (and its wing size) but also the stealth features that come with it. Not only F-16 XL but F-16 blk60 was to make use of delta wing to improve the added weight and efficiency of the platform. But no firm order from USAF and UAE being the last resort, the plans were dropped. The reason USAF is not procuring any more F-16's is that they have more than they need sitting in storage and secondly they don't fit in their policy of advanced warfare; F-35 has that spot.

    Here is your quote AS-IS (in Red) and my reply (in Green):
    Buying F-16 now is ten different kinds of stupid. For a purchase of F-16 to make sense, you need to fit the following requirements:
    1. No ambition to develop domestic aeronautic industries

    It will come to india as a part of MII which means 51% has to be made here in india. India will only do deal if it brings the technology home (even if its existing and not future one). IF India is going to be global supply of F-16, the same will be for MLU's and other parts. Everyone will be ready to come to India. The only problem I see is the AN/APG-80 Radar since its very new and has similarity with F-35 and F-22.

    2. No compunction against being fully dependent on US support to fly the aircraft
    We won't even depend on them for the engine. When India did the deal for GE 414 engines, the inital lot of 99 engines will come from GE USA but the rest will be built in India under HAL with just the licensing fee for GE. They own this engine as well so replication of the deal shouldn't be a issue.
    3. No real threats from well-equipped neighbors
    You are joking right!
    4. No money to afford better aircraft
    This is going to be true in case of India. The modernization of armed forces is no small feat and though a lot of deals have been pushed by the current government. A long term sustainable strategy is still not in place. I believe that IAF does need 350+ aircraft but their own inefficiency and no foresight in future is to blame than just congress. Even though I believe in Indian mythology, Shri Modi's "Tathastu" won't materialize for next 3 years in either case and the situation is getting dire by the day. Rafale purchase does bring some relief to IAF but its not the solution (why? due to its cost/ affordability).

    I would also want a Indian solution in the sky but its way too far away in the horizon. Therefore, a intermediate solution is required which will supplement the Indian solution for now and complement it later.
     
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  15. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The Canadian government intends to issue a call for tenders to replace the CF-18 fighter planes with new combat aircraft in 2019
    Translation
    Negotiations are still underway between Ottawa and Washington regarding the cost of acquiring the aircraft. The purchase and maintenance of the 18 multi-role fighter could cost between $ 5 and $ 7 billion, according to CBC News.

    He @Averageamerican 7 billions for 18 aircrafts ==> It will be 389 Millions for each antiqated F-18
     
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