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F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Averageamerican, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    And I told you back that it's not true. If Dassault can't dictate the production way then the production would have been a failure. In this case fortunatly the MMRCA was cancelled.
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    You can't blame India for everything. :disagree:
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The lack of "requisite quality control", "proper planning" and "effective oversight" is going to make it from difficult to impossible to build highly advanced air craft in India.
     
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  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    HAL was making unrealistic demands. HAL pointed out they want less automation because of the oversupply of manpower while Rafale's production is highly automated requiring less manpower.

    Then they wanted to buy tools through a tender instead of using Dassault's tools. Dassault pointed out it can be done, but would have to re-certify the aircraft all over again, bringing in major delays.

    Then, HAL pointed out their manpower isn't as productive as Dassault's, so they require 2.7 times the manpower necessary to do the work of 1 French manhour. That meant running the factory through 3 shifts compared to 1 Dassault shift.

    Finally, while this circus was being sorted out, the govt pointed out they want Dassault to be responsible for the quality of the aircraft. Dassault did not agree.

    Modi's GTG killed the MMRCA deal. Then the govt decided they will let the bidders choose their partners instead of forcing HAL on them. Problem solved.
     
  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Kind of doubt Dassault is highly automated while making only 11 planes a year.

    Northrop Grumman will upgrade navigation systems for E-2C Hawkeye aircraft operated by the government of France. Valued at $11 million, the US Navy awarded foreign military sale will see the company service cockpit systems and displays for three French navy-owned aircraft in compliance with International Civil Aviation Organization standards by July 2019. Work on the planes will take place in Melbourne, Fla.; Cuers, France and several additional locations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  6. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    We were making 11 planes a year when the demand was less than 11 planes a year, it's a minimum. Now the demand is for more and we are producing 22 planes a year. There is no limit on the number we could produce, it could be 150 a year if needed, the only limit is that the transition takes 3 years. By the way we are producing 55 Airbus a month.
     
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  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Donald Trump administration asked to push for F-16 sale to India
    PTI | Last Updated: Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 16:08




    Washington: Two top Senators have urged the Trump administration to push for the sale of F-16 fighter jets to India to build its capability to counter security threats and balance China's growing military power in the Pacific.

    Senators Mark Warner from Virginia and John Cornyn from Texa in a joint letter to US Defence Secretary James Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said, the Trump administration must make the fighter jet acquisition a priority during initial bilateral discussions with India.

    India has launched an effort to expand its combat aircraft fleet and the competition has reportedly narrowed down to Lockheed's F-16 and Saab's Gripen.

    Noting that the last F-16 for the US Air Force rolled off the production line in Fort Worth in 1999, the two Senators said India remains the only major F-16 prospect customer.

    "A primary factor in India's decision will be compliance with Prime Minister (Narendra) Modi's 'Make in India' initiative, which will require establishing some level of local production capacity," Warner and Cornyn wrote.

    "Given the strategic significance of India selecting a US aircraft as the mainstay for its future Air Force and the potential for a decision this year, we ask that the administration make the fighter acquisition a priority during initial bilateral discussions," they said.

    Warner, who is a Democrat and Cornyn from the Republican Party are the co-chairs of the influential Senate India caucus, the only country-specific caucus in the US Senate.

    "We urge you to weigh in forcefully with the White House on the strategic significance of this deal, both to America`s defence industrial base and to our growing security partnership with India," said the letter dated March 23.

    Making a strong case for the sale of F-16s to India, the two Senators said this would represent a historic win for America that will deepen the US-India strategic defence relationship and cement cooperation between our two countries for decades to come.

    "It would increase interoperability with a key partner and dominant power in South Asia, build India's capability to counter threat from the north, and balance China's growing military capability in the Pacific," they said.

    India, they said, increasingly serves as an integral partner in the United States' security architecture in the volatile South Asia region, helping to protect our joint interests and deter common threats, and has emerged as a critical trading partner, they noted.

    As such "it is in our national interest to work with India to progress democratic principles through regional security partnership and burden sharing," they said.

    "To this end, we support the co-production of our legacy F-16 aircraft in India to help sustain the United States' current fleet of aircraft and aid a critical Indian security need with a proven American product," Cornyn and Warner wrote.

    The competition for the fighter jets, they wrote, presents an opportunity to solidify and strengthen the significant gains made in the bilateral US-India defence relationship over the two previous administrations, they said.
     
  8. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    11 million ... it's a very small contract.
     
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Doubt if India could meet the requirements of the foreign corrupt practices Act ?. every Indian defence pact has involved massive payoffs at every level India just doesn't have the infrastructure to support a venture of this level & maintain the stringent quality control.
     
  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    True but if you want the best call on the US.
     
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Hal doesn't matter wrt to the tender process, since that is set up by MoD and IAF. Any vendor has to comply to their demands, or state issues from the start. If Dassault had stated that they don't want HAL for the final assembly, when they replied to the RFP, Mod either had time to deal with that issue before the tender starts, or would have rejected Dassault for not complying to the RFP requirements.

    Complaining about it after winning the tender is a cheap move.


    Not true, since the vendors were free to choose partners for production and it was DM Parrikar that also insisted on the tender requirements => HAL!

    This was one of the key issues that led to scrapping MMRCA, which then led to a poor G2G compromise and now possibly to another poor single engine fighter.
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Then HAL wasn't compliant with MoD's tender rules.

    Dassault finally agreed to HAL as lead integrator.

    Nope, no bidder was free to choose a partner. HAL was the lead integrator of the project. Even the subcontractors had to go through HAL.

    Here:
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...L-as-lead-integrator/articleshow/17874385.cms
    If any company other than HAL is designated as the integrator, it would be deviation from the tender issued for the project and as per the defence procurement procedure, it will have to be approved by the defence acquisition council, defence ministry sources said.

    The problem why this failed, and HAL admitted to this publicly, is because HAL wasn't as productive as the French.

    I see both as being far superior to the MMRCA.
     
  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    You are contradicting yourself, since that means that parts produced by others will be integrated by HAL! That's why Dassault made a JV with Reliance to initially produce the wings, which then would be send to HAL. Just as Thales and Co made similar JVs with Indian counterparts of THEIR choosing. All these JVs were made independent from HAL and with separate contracts.

    Maybe you should look at it from IAFs pov and not because of your preference for the PM. Then you see that getting just 36 fighter instead of 126 is not good for IAF and when they have to stick with 2 fighters, they didn't shortlisted, that can't be good for them either.
    Not to mention that the new evaluation of possible single engine fighters and a new tender further delays new fighters for IAF.
     
  14. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Finally HAL refuse to modify their methodology for production. It's the main point of the failure from Dassault point of vue.
    Your point of vue is that Dassault have to accept because for you it can't dictate the production way.
    But the MMRCA was with ToT and for Dassault the modification of the production way was obviously part of the ToT. So HAL refuse the ToT needed to produce Rafale.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Wings aren't the only part of the aircraft. HAL was manufacturing the fuselage, engine etc.

    I am talking about this from IAF's PoV itself. Not the govt's.

    They finished GTG for Rafale in just a year.
     

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