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F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. brahmastr

    brahmastr 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Dont agree.. Lets wait until PAKFA get FOC and then come to conclusion about delicacy of any stealth aircraft..

    I am very happy about the video.. 2 year old though (or 3 years ? ).
    During sanction in 1998 due to Pokhran test they literally thrown Kota Harinarayana and team out of USA who were working in pentagon on LCA using F16 infrastructure.. They were actually trying to integrate software they built with hardware (F16 as test bed)... They didnt even let them take their own data.. They had to redo everything from scratch again.. Thanks to Dr. Abdul Kalam Ji then Security Advisor to then Prime Minister Sri AB Vajpayee who supported KH and team.

    destiny paid them right for their arrogance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
  2. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I expect his main interest is selling French Planes.
     
  3. brahmastr

    brahmastr 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    hehe.. and urs to sell US planes..

    boss any military knows exactly what they require.. and respective nation provides the same to their forces depending on their budget. If you think our debates here have anything to do with defence deals; I am sorry.. :sarcastic:
     
  4. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    well war means death and destruction, and as such all weapons will fail or will be destroyed


    this shows there is no small enemy a Mi-24 downed 2 F-15 flown by a woman in mock combat, F-22 also can be downed, any jet can fall
    [​IMG]
    Israeli F-4 on the sight of Egyptian MiG-21 real combat
    [​IMG]
     
  5. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    I think she is Hungarian, the reason is the flag on her left arm. Also Hungary being ex-Warsaw Pact country had Mi-24 in quantity,
     
  6. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    yes she is from Hungary however i got interested because many Russian sources claimed a Mi-24 actually downed an Iranian F-4

    Во время ирано-иракской войны иракские вертолеты Ми-24 успешно вели воздушные бои с иранскими боевыми вертолетами Bell АН-1J "Sea Cobra" и, обладая значительным преимуществом в вооружении, поражали их или заставляли удаляться и вызывать на помощь истребители. В одном из таких воздушных боев 27 октября 1982г. с вертолета Ми-24 на встречном курсе выпущенными НАР был сбит иранский истребитель F-4 "Phantom II", обладавший мощным вооружением и вдвое превосходивший Ми-24 по взлетной массе, первый и единственный в мире случай в практике воздушных боев, когда вертолетом был сбит боевой самолет. Всего во время ирано-иракской войны иракскими летчиками, летавшими на вертолетах Ми-24 и Ми-8, а также на вертолетах "Газель", было сбито 53 иранских вертолета: Bell АН-1J "Sea Cobra", АВ214, АВ212 и другие

    ÒÞáìÜÞÙ ÚÞÃ**ßãá - âрðýÑÂÿþрÑ‚ýþ-ñþõòþù òõрÑ‚þûõт Üø-24


    Зафиксированы случаи воздушных боёв между вертолётами: иракскими Ми-25 и иранскими AH-1J "Си Кобра" (первый такой бой (и первый в мире) произошёл в ноябре 1980 года в районе города Дезфуль). 24 октября 1982 года у населённого пункта Эйн-Хош иракский Ми-25 сбил иранский истребитель F-4 "Фантом II".

    http://www.brazd.ru/av/mi-25.html
    and that woman proved the Russian source is well founded at least in theory.

    And you are right some american experts claim F-22 is to delicate as ground attack and they say the same for F-35
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  7. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    There is no credible comparison between the dive bombing techniques of WW II, which had 'dumb' bombs, and today's far more precise munitions. The 'smarter' the munition, the further the deliverer can be away from the target. That is why we have bows and arrows, spears, firearms, artillery, ICBMs. Your argument is a complete wash.

    This is why I do not take any of your so called 'analysis' seriously. No one who have relevant experience in the sensor arena would.

    Your lack of relevant experience, military and civilian, which you tried feebly to dismiss, may work with more gullible people, but not with me.

    Readers,

    Despite plenty of sources presented that this man can use to perform keyword searches to learn something he never knew before, namely 'radar reflector' and 'luneberg lens', it is clear that he is more interested in his own ego than about knowledge.

    This...

    [​IMG]

    ...Is the object in question.

    It is a 'radar reflector' of the 'luneberg' -- or sometimes spelled 'luneburg' -- design. The goal of a radar reflector is to focus and even enhance/increase a body's radar cross section. There are times when an RCS must be made as visible as possible, such as in marine safety condition where small boats want to be seen by larger vessels. Or such as tall structures should be seen by aircraft, in the EM spectrum, for collision avoidance...

    Unit 1: Sketching, Orthographic drawings, Isometric drawings, Dimensioning and the Technology Design Process
    A basic radar reflector look like this...

    [​IMG]

    It works on the principle of multiple reflections and this basic design is called a 'corner reflector'...

    Corner reflector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    For marine safety, a high RCS is desirable. But for a military aircraft, the corner reflector structure must be avoided, like this...

    [​IMG]

    When the F-22 wants to hide its true RCS, it flies with a radar reflector of the 'luneberg lens' design, which is more complex and despite being physically smaller than the 'corner reflector' design still greatly enhances the aircraft's RCS. A 'luneberg lens' device is essentially a container of conductive coils in a precise arrangement that will reflect and enhance any impinging radar signals back to source direction no matter which direction.

    A 'luneberg lens' device works on the behaviors of a concave curvature...

    [​IMG]

    So when those of us with relevant experience read this nonsense...

    We know right off that we are reading a poseur. The Rafale can detect the F-22 all it wants and since the F-22 is equipped with the reflector/enhancer, the Rafale WILL detect the F-22 via that 'dingleberry'. But the Rafale does not have the F-22's true RCS. Never will as long as the reflector is in place.

    The A-10 is a dedicated CAS platform. The F-117 is a tactical bomber. No credible comparison.

    And 2 out of 36 THOUSANDS is a good air defense record? I guess it is so for you.

    I failed to see any credible comparison here. Is this a criticism of the B-1B for being a poor CAS platform? If so, then I agree. :lol:

    The political goal was not to topple Saddam Hussein but to deny him possession of Kuwait. To support that political goal, the military objectives were to do whatever necessary to cripple his military. And we succeeded.

    In short, your criticism of 'stealth' spectacularly failed so you have to resort to these absurd comparisons.
     
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  8. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    You mean like this...

    Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies
    Red Flag is the world's premier air combat exercise that have only two rules at the final period: Altitude and Missiles.

    What that mean is that the F-22 went up against radars of all types, from fighter to AWACS, and beat them all. I know you are not interested in reading and thinking about what you learned as new, but that is for the readers as much as it is for you, may be even more so for them.

    The F-22 hunted more than just AWACS. It hunted other fighters and if live missiles were involved, a lot of people would be dead.

    Let me know when your country can field a Red Flag equivalent.

    Sheer nonsense.

    I know more about radars and RCS than you do. Far more.

    The problem for your argument here is that for whatever maximum range any radar has, effective detection range is about 3/4 of that. You can prattle on about long wavelengths all you want, but I will let your deception pass. Meters lengths systems are ground based and therefore line-of-sight limited. Tactically speaking, any aircraft -- not just 'stealth' -- can evade these systems by dropping below the radar horizon.

    More like you got busted. But I have no doubt in time you will bring it up again. That is your type -- intellectually dishonest.

    You still did not understand at what level I was talking about.

    Losing a war is much costlier.

    By this argument, may be the army -- any army -- should do away with special forces altogether. Special forces are too few in number, cost more per unit to maintain, and standards are too high for acceptance, which make special operations useless.

    Out of 36 THOUSANDS sorties? Damn good survivability to me and to those who have military experience, which you do not have and is now trying to downplay it. Survivability does not mean immunity. You do not know what the hell you are talking about.
     
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  9. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    In radar detection, distance increases RCS, so IF the Serbs were able to detect and track an F-117, it was out of good fortune, not planning, that the F-117 came close enough. Sorry, but no matter how much you want to spin it, 2 out of 36 THOUSANDS sorties is not an air defense combat record to boast about, even if one of them was a 'stealth' aircraft. What it means is that 'stealth' worked -- spectacularly.

    Same argument for 'non-stealth' aircrafts as well. Except in their case, their RCS are greater.

    The Russians wish they could. The Russians are still smarting that they dismissed Ufimtsev's work, thereby letting the Americans got two generations ahead of them in this area.
     
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  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Serbia hit two F-117 and they were a fragmented country in the middle of civil war.

    Serbia was in fact not even a nation but one of the factions of the former Yugoslavia.

    For a nation to have downed a F-117 and hit another rendering it useless is not luck as you claim.

    It is intelligence what counts here, the Serbs had more technical knowledge, they even developed aircraft than the Iraqies.


    Now probably you do not know the Russian designs for MFI
    S-37s with S ducts and weapons bays
    [​IMG]
    Fully developed model of S-37 behind Pogyosan
    [​IMG]
    S-37 with flat nozzles
    [​IMG]
    Yak proposal

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  11. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Luneberg lens have NOTHING to do with my arguments. You either don't know how to think, or are lying about your military background, or are simply too biased to even try to think about my arguments.

    F22s own RCS has NOTHING to do with Rafale detecting F22s radar emissions. You fail at basic reading comprehension.

    RCS of a F22 is important when other plane is using radar to try and detect it. It is irrelevant when other plane is trying to detect F22s own electronic emissions. What does matter is how advanced RWR of opposing plane is, and how powerful F22s radar is.

    Don't tell me luneberg lens also enhance F22s radar. Because that is what you are saying right now.

    A10 is not stealth, F117 is, and for some reason USAF insists that F35 can replace A10, despite being tactical bomber like F117 and not CAS plane, which A10 is.

    If you want a "tactical bomber" - In Gulf War I, F16s flew 13 340 sorties, and had 3 confirmed losses to enemy action, 7 losses total; thus, loss rate was one plane per 4460 sorties for confirmed combat losses, or one plane per 1900 sorties for total losses.

    In over 8 000 daytime missions in Gulf War One, A10 suffered 3 losses to IR missiles – in other three cases, plane was hit but returned to base safely. Meanwhile, 83 % of A10s that were hit made a safe landing. In Gulf War and Kosovo campaigns, A10s flew 12 400 sorties while suffering 4 losses – a one loss per 3100 sorties, far less than F117, which had 1 loss per 1300 sorties.

    In Gulf War One, both F16 and A10 squadrons which were flying night missions suffered same number of losses as F117s, which were flying exclusively at night: ZERO.

    I never claimed it is. What I am comparing is survivability of A10 and F117, since F35 was never in combat.

    No, it is a criticism of some USAF generals claiming that F35 can replace A10, since F35 has all of shortcomings in CAS area that B-1B has.

    What you are talking about is FIRST Gulf War. Objective of SECOND Gulf War WAS to topple Saddam Hussein.

    It didn't go against RWR- and IRST- -equipped fighters, and exercises were set-up to play on F22s strengths.

    Then you are certainly not showing it.

    Yes, I know that. But that just shows how irrelevant F22 and F35 are against anyone more advanced than Middle Eastern states.

    Stop attributing your own charactersitics to me. I made a mistake, I rectified it. You, on the other hand, refuse to even consider possibility that you - that is, US generals, since you don't seem to have done any research on topic - may be wrong.

    F22 won't help US to win a war. Strategically, it would be far better for US to have bought 1500 new F16s than 190 F22s it actually bought.

    Last time I checked, US was trying to replace its entire aircraft inventory with stealth fighters. 50 F22s and similar number of F35s would be ideal for what you are describing.

    You are, as usual, completely - and intentionally - missing my point.

    F16 had better survivability rate of F117. THAT is what I am talking about.

    Except it didn't. Majority of sorties were by non-stealth aircraft, yet stealth aircraft have suffered more losses per number of flights than non-stealth aircraft.

    In what way?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  12. tunguska

    tunguska Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Latest F-22 upgrade brings ability to jam enemy radars

    This year, the US Air Force started fielding the Increment 3.1 upgrade to its Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor fleet.

    The modifications add a synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability to the fighter's Northrop Grumman APG-77 radar, plus electronic attack, better geo-location capabilities to find enemy radars and the ability to carry eight 113kg (250lb) small diameter bombs (SDBs), for use in pairs against four ground targets.

    Introduction of an SAR mode will assist during the manual targeting process, which is an improvement over the previous Increment 2 configuration's use of two 454kg Joint Direct Attack Munition satellite-corrected, inertially guided bombs against individual targets.
    The USAF has not been forthcoming about the precise details of the Raptor's new electronic attack mode.

    Starting in 2014, the USAF will also field a series of Increment 3.2 upgrades split across three packages. Aircraft would start to enter the second of these in 2017, and while the third package has yet to be fully defined, the service wants to add open-architecture hardware and software during this phase.

    Key elements of the Increment 3.2 enhancements include the addition of Raytheon's high off-boresight AIM-9X and AIM-120D Amraam missiles, and the ability to retarget independently up to eight SDBs against eight separate targets. Automatic ground collision avoidance and anti-jamming systems will also be incorporated.

    However, the F-22 will not receive a helmet-mounted cueing system or the new multifunction advanced data-link (MADL).

    MISSING PARTS

    USAF sources say the lack of a helmet-mounted display will only preclude pilots from exploiting the outer edges of the AIM-9X's envelope, but that the new weapon will still greatly increase the Raptor's potency.

    The lack of a new data-link, however, is a problem, as the MADL would have allowed the Raptor to trade data with the Lockheed F-35 Lightning II and Northrop Grumman B-2 bomber. While the F-22 does have the ability to communicate over secure voice with other aircraft, it can only share data with other Raptors via its intra-flight data-link and a handful of specially equipped Northrop RQ-4 Global Hawk unmanned air vehicles.

    When the USAF was first learning to coordinate F-22s with "fourth-generation" jets, the Raptor's inability to transmit over the Link 16 data-link was a vexing problem. But pilots learned to "de-conflict" through timing and more detailed briefings.

    The USAF hopes to eventually develop a new data link that would solve the problem, Lt Gen Herbert Carlisle, the service's deputy chief of operations, plans and requirements said in February.

    There are also some planned combat identification algorithms that will be added to the APG-77 radar. Additionally, the F-22 programme has begun to retrofit improved stealth materials from the F-35. The new materials improve the durability of the aircraft's coating, but do not impact the Raptor's radar cross-section
     
  13. tunguska

    tunguska Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    USAF receives last F-22 Raptor

    The US Air Force has formally taken delivery of its last F-22 Raptor air dominance fighter from airframer Lockheed Martin.

    In an elaborate ceremony held at Lockheed's Marietta, Georgia factory on 2 May, the company's F-22 programme manager Jeff Babione handed over a ceremonial key for the last Raptor to US Air Force (USAF) Chief of Staff Gen Norton Schwartz, who then handed it over to pilot Lt Col Paul "Max" Moga, who then passed it onto his crew chief, Staff Sgt Damon Crawford.

    In the audience were a host of industry and USAF dignitaries including Lockheed chief executive Bob Stevens, and Gens Mike Hostage, Edward Rice and Gary North, among others.

    "The delivery represents an important element in our overall modernisation effort," Schwartz says. "We continue to focus on ensuringthat these capabilities will help shape the future security environment, not just respond to them."

    The delivery of tail number 10-4195 marks the completion of 187 production jets and eight pre-production test aircraft. A far cry from the 750 jets the USAF originally envisioned. The USAF took ownership of the jet with the signing of Form DD-250.

    "If someone had told me in 2004, when I first started flying the Raptor, that I would have the honour of flying the last production jet out of Marietta, I'd have never believed them," says Moga, commander of 525th FS, who will fly the jet to Alaska. 3rd Wg Cdr Col Dirk "Stuff" Smith will fly tail 4193 Elemendorf-Richardson.

    Moga praises those who built the powerful twin-engined stealth fighter.

    "The F-22 weapon system is a testament to this country's industrial strength, technological power and aviation ingenuity. Any line worker, engineer or supervisor that was involved in building the Raptor should feel an immense amount of pride in what they have accomplished. It is far and away the most lethal fighter aircraft ever built - a fact that will unfortunately, but most certainly, be proven in combat some day," he says. "Rest assured...the F-22 has and will save lives."

    Although Tail 4195 is the last Raptor to be built, the F-22's story is not over. Schwartz reiterated the USAF's commitment to continue upgrading the F-22 because it is essential to defeating anti-access/area-denial threats.

    The USAF is continuing to field upgraded jets with the new Increment 3.1 modernisation package, which greatly increases the jet's air-to-surface punch.

    Increment 3.1 adds synthetic aperture radar (SAR) ground mapping capability with which the Raptor will be able to select its own ground targets. It also allows the Raptor to carry eight satellite-corrected inertially-guided 113kg (250lb) Small Diameter Bombs (SDB). The upgrade allows a pilot to manually designate two ground targets at a time using two weapons each, which enables an F-22 to hit four separate targets with its eight weapons.

    The USAF's previous Increment 2 configuration enabled each aircraft to strike two fixed targets using its two 454kg (1,000lb) Joint Direct Attack Munition satellite-corrected, inertially guided bombs.

    The configuration also provides for improved electronic attack of enemy air defences and an upgraded geo-location capability.

    "Currently, 10 aircraft have received the Increment 3.1 upgrade and by the end of 2012 we will have 23 aircraft retrofitted with the Increment 3.1 capabilities," says Col John Williams, chief of the F-22 modernisation branch at the USAF Aeronautical Systems Center. "The current plan calls for all combat-coded aircraft to be retrofitted with the Increment 3.1 upgrade."

    Given that only a handful of jets in Alaska have the new capability installed, the USAF has not had much time to gauge just how much of an impact the new upgrades will have.

    "From an operational perspective, we have gotten very limited feedback as the capability is in the initial fielding stage with just 10 aircraft retrofitted to date," Williams says. "The feedback that we have gotten from operational testing is the capabilities are a game changer."

    Moga, whose squadron flies some of the modernised jets, concurs. "The capabilities this incremental upgrade brings are a complete game-changer for the F-22, making it even more lethal and survivable in combat," he says.

    Every Raptor from tail number 03-4045 through 10-4195 will be upgraded with Increment 3.1, according to Air Combat Command (ACC).

    In the coming years, the F-22 will become more lethal still.

    In 2014, the USAF will start to field Increment 3.2A. The software-only modification "incorporates new electronic protection techniques and improves the situational awareness of the pilot with the addition of new combat identification techniques", Williams says. It will also correlate data from the Link 16 data-link and fuse it with the F-22's integrated sensors.

    That effort will be followed up with an Increment 3.2B upgrade. A Milestone B decision to go ahead with the procurement of Increment 3.2B is planned for December 2012, Williams says. "Kit procurement begins in fiscal year [2016] with kit deliveries in [the third quarter of] fiscal year [2017] and initial installations completed in [the first quarter of fiscal year [2018]," he says.

    Increment 3.2B is a hardware and software upgrade that will fully incorporate the

    AIM-120D and AIM-9X air-to-air missiles in addition to further upgraded geo-location and electronic protection capabilities.

    But according to a recent Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, it will no longer add the capability to independently re-target eight SDBs at eight separate targets or an automatic ground collision avoidance system (Auto-GCAS). A USAF Scientific Advisory Board study on the Raptor's ongoing oxygen system woes has recommended that an Auto-GCAS be implemented.

    Increment 3.2B is a much more complicated upgrade than the previous efforts.

    "We will be implementing a new enhanced stores management system, increasing the ability of the aircraft to communicate with the weapons," Williams says. "This change will provide a common split-bus architecture for the Block 30/35 aircraft to support the increased communication requirements of newer weapon systems."

    However, the USAF cannot wait until 2017 to launch its newest air-to-air weapons from the Raptor. The service is planning to add a "rudimentary" capability to carry both the AIM-9X and AIM-120D before Increment 3.2B is completed.

    The AIM-120D will be added first in Update 4, which the service plans to release to the fleet in 2013. The AIM-9X will be added in Update 5, which is set for a 2015 release. "The AIM-9X effort in Update 5 also serves as a risk reduction activity for Increment 3.2B," Williams says.

    Every aircraft from Tail 03-4045 onwards will receive Increment 3.2A and B, says ACC. According to a recent Government Accountability Office report, the cost of the Raptor upgrade programme will total about $9.7 billion.

    A further update called Increment 3.2C has recently been renamed Increment 3.3, but the capabilities that it might include have not yet been defined. Williams says it will focus on making sure the Raptor remains compatible with new air traffic control systems.

    "The effort will be focused on maintaining airspace access and endeavour to include all of the current airspace mandates like Mode S and Mode 5 as well as other FAA/ICAO mandated requirements," he says.

    The F-22 System Program Office is still working on trying to graft an open systems architecture to the jet's computers.

    "We have been in discussions with companies across the defence industry and, based on these discussions, we recently released a request to [Lockheed Martin] to identify 10 potential alternatives to incrementally open up the F-22 avionics architecture," Williams says. "It is our intent for the government with assistance from outside experts to select the most promising alternatives and award a contract later this year to demonstrate these candidates."

    Babione says Lockheed is helping the USAF define the requirements for the open-systems architecture system. It will not be just Lockheed that will participate in the effort, but rather a wide industry consortium will participate, he says.

    The addition of open systems architecture could open doors to as of yet unforeseen upgrade possibilities.
     
  14. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Hahaha.
     
  15. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Context is everything.
     
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