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F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    You think that the chinese would have their asses kicked over their homeland? Seriously? You are kidding right?? :cheesy:

    China has the largest army in the world and the 3rd largest airforce in the world. Their naval prowess is growing and certainly can be considered a regional naval power. Do you think they would tolerate an american attack lying down? I suggest you read carefully what I wrote. I never said the chinese would win. But certainly they would put up enough of a fight to shatter the american superiority myth. On top of that, if Russia and North Korea decides to join forces with the chinese (covertly), then God help America. Even if rest of the NATO forces joined hands with the US, they still would still be at a disadvantage since they would be fighting China over chinese airspace. Why do you think America is so keen to get India on their side? In the event of a war, they know the pakistani won't help. South Korea would be busy fighting the North. Russia would never be of help. Only Japan and taiwan may allow the us to operate from their bases.

    In the Korean war, China sided with North Koreans openly. Although they were fighting with WWII surplus weapons mostly, they gave the UN forces a run for their money.

    Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Therefore I don't see any remote possibility of the chinese getting their "a$$es kicked" in the events of a war even if it is with the americans. :wave:
     
  2. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Blah Blah Blah
    I've seen 12 year old kids who talk more sense than you.
    'Largest army in the world, 3rd largest airforce in the world, regional naval power'. And that is supposedly enough to shatter the myth the 'superiority myth'.
    I can't waste my time on you. But for some light reading I'd suggest you read into the defense budget of the two countries if you can comprehend what that even mean.

    Not related in anyway, but would like you to see what happens when Uncle strikes.......
    [​IMG]
    ................these are some 90 Iraqi tanks
    [​IMG]
    .................destroyed by 3 GBU-97's dropped by a B-52.


    Can't wait to see what happens to the largest army in the world.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  3. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    That's because of your lack of critical thinking or understanding of actual limitations of technology in war as opposed to US wet dreams about BVR combat.
     
  4. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    Hmmm...what can 187 f-22s do against 1,000 PAK-FAs?:smile:

    As it is I think F-35 will be target practice for the FireFox.
     
  5. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    1) Nothing. And PAK FA has IRST, F22 doesn't.

    2) F-35 would be target practice for MiG-21, let alone something better,
     
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  6. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    And what are you? 10? What are you trying to prove by showing a bunch of images that are more than 20 years old?

    China has increased her defense budget by 11% while America has decreased her defense budget in the current fiscal year. Since you seem to be incapable of presenting valid arguements, I urge you to read a little bit.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/05/w...s-military-spending-more-than-11-percent.html
    China’s military spending to top $100 billion in 2012 - The Washington Post
    China boosts defense budget 11 percent after U.S. pivot | Reuters

    US does global policing and has to maintain the capability of intercontinental strikes, a much larger navy and air force. In a war with china, the US would be on the offensive side and china on the defensive side.

    Though you seem incapable, I suggest you read on the stats of the Korean war (link i gave you earlier) and how the chinese shook the american might. No matter what you say, it doesn't take away the fact that the chinese are a formidable force and the US is nervous about chinese weapons expansion and economic growth.

    5 new reasons why America should be scared of China
    US nervous as China splashes investment cash everywhere - Taipei Times

    I don't like this, but this is a cold hard fact.
     
  7. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    Guys in a modern warfare, Quality matters than quantity.
    And don’t pitch in weapons vs weapons. It is complete integration of the all units which works as one force.
    China is about a decade behind the tech advancements of US considering the conventional warfare.
    China is about 2 decades behind US in Space based assets..
    And there will be no war between the 2. WHo tends to loose more. Is it China or US economically.
    China doesn’t have the capability of projecting power outside south China sea.
    US has the capability to project power all over the world.
    Electronic warfare China doesn’t own single Tier 1 lines of total 5. And US defense owns 2 of them.
    Space based asset China is not even match with the tech capabilities of US, example Chinese didn’t even know until X37-B was snooping around their satellites for a year.

    All comes who best manages the available assets. I don’t believe only tech wins the war. Winning a was mainly comes in experience, battle readiness, quick deployment and asset management.
    They are no match.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  8. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    F22 Warbird is a development in progress. It is formidable machine no doubt. But it is plagued with minor bugs. But they are not focussing mainly on this machine currently. You will see after 3 or 4 years they are going to come up with something.
     
  9. brahmastr

    brahmastr 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Wonder when will these fellows come out of BVR and stealth myth. Gone are the days to depend on Radar. Now all global powers have capacity to launch their own military satellite and get real time info about all enemy movements (these glopal powers only war mongers and have armaments and ammunition to wage wars and defend wars)..

    Please come to real world.
     
  10. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    I agree with you and the chinese do realize that they cannot match US weapon for weapon although they have a standing army larger than the US. This is why they have resorted to cyber espionage. We often make fun of the chinese way of copying weapons, systems, jets etc. But we have to hand it to them and admit that they are the best when it comes to reverse engineering. The problem with that is, you cannot look to the OEM if you face any road block which you can do with license production. But if you have excellent reverse engineering capability, you can build as many copies as you want which you cannot do with license production.

    The chinese hackers stole several terabytes of data related to f22. Suddenly you see j20 prototypes being rolled out and the project progressing at an alarming rate. While the Russian PAK FA project has been pushed back by 2 years, the J20 project is ahead of schedule. This seems extremely fishy since the chinese do not have much experience in stealth technology unless they were actually on to something and working of available technology. One may argue that the chinese may have learnt a lot about stealth technology from the wreckage of the F117 bomber that shot down in serbia by a SAM but I doubt they learnt much. The F117 by that time was almost on the verge of retirement and was already an obsolete technology by American standards. From front, the J20 looks eerily similar to the F22 including the HUD:

    http://defensetech.org/2012/06/01/pic-of-the-week-the-j-20s-hud/
    Did China steal stealth technology from US and Russia for Chengdu J-20? | Defence Aviation
    Did China Steal U.S. Stealth Secrets? | Offiziere.ch

    Apart from that, they may have also received Mig 1.44 data from the Russians.

    Point is, China may be decades behind the US but in a war with China, you can expect the US to receive much more than a bloody nose
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
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  11. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Quality matters up to some point and no further. And even then, quality of personnell is far more important than quality of hardware.

    True.
     
  12. layman

    layman Aurignacian STAR MEMBER

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    Lolz, I like your post 'Bloody Nose’, Sure it is, we have to hand it to them in the aspect of reverse engineering. Man!!! they can make a copy from phone to warplanes. It is a feet in its own aspect. Imagine reverse engineering RAM coat, that is really commendable. But until what extend, we need to see something new out of the box from Chinese side. Something like new weapons platform than a conventional one. Then we can say they are in route to ceed to be a Super Power. They are only currently copy whatever US has exposed to the world. That is where we need to focus on what is new coming from them which no one has or in process of developing. For example US has this undeclared HARP, where Chinese doesn’t even have the capability to track objects beyond Leo.There is the difference. When these capabilities match up we can see some good fireworks. May not happen in our lifetime, but sure someone will do it...
     
  13. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Thanks Mate!
    I am not sure how much out of the box or indigenous designs we would be able to see from the Chinese. Let me see if I can explain this...
    A habitual burglar would not want to work even if you offer him a job. This is because to him, burglary seems to be an easier way of earning money. This is just an analogy I am using and do not intend in any way to hurt anyone's sentiment.

    The Chinese similarly have found reverse engineering easier than to spend millions on R&D. Someone makes something new, steal it, copy it, use it, throw it, make another one. Far cheaper alternative for the Chinese. But I say this not to discredit them. Reverse engineering is not easy and does require skills.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2012
  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Would be like usual about an hours work an 1000 to 0 kill ratio. Maybe half would run for another country.
     
  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Historically, 3:1 was maximum ratio where superior quality could compensate for superior quantity.

    New F22 costs 250 million USD flyaway.
    New F35 costs 200 million USD flyaway.
    New F15K costs 100 million USD flyaway.
    New F16 costs 60 million USD flyaway; original F16 would have cost 30 million USD flyaway.
    Sprey's F16 as originally envisioned would have flyaway cost of 16 million USD.
    New JF17 costs about 20 - 30 million USD flyaway.
    New Su-35 costs 45-65 million USD flyaway.
    New Eurofighter Typhoon costs 120 million USD flyaway.
    New Dassault Rafale costs 80 million USD flyaway.
    New Saab Gripen costs 40 - 60 million USD flyaway.

    Of course, you need pilots, bases, ammo, fuel and support staff - all of which is far more expensive for stealth planes than legacy ones, except for pilots - but if you have something like Saab Gripen, which can fly from well-made road and be stored in larger road tunnel, basing is largely non-issue.
     
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