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F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    If i was from India I dont thing I would bring up other countries planes crashing.
     
  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    We know our shortcomings and dont deny them. You dont even accept the problems. Thats the problem. I agree that we had a large number of Mig-21 crashes primarily due to age and single engine. The rate of crashes for modern ac in india is at par with USAF.
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Any revolution in air craft design as advanced as the F22 is allways going to have problems. Some of the teen fighters had the same problem and we solved those, I am sure we will solve this one. What the F22 does is makes all other planes obsolete including the PAK-FA and its still eight years away from being built at the rate the Russians are going.
     
  4. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Yeaa...you know what, I suggest u dont go there!! F22 is a fully evolved platform with closed production lines (and yet they never seem to be able to iron out the crucial issues) and PAK FA is still in advanced prototype stages. Its still evolving and by the time it reached production, it is highly likely that it will surpass the F22 in terms of technology, weapons capability and general effectiveness.

    I agree that the F22 is the best fighter jet in the world, but only on paper. Let me ask you a simple question. Has the US ever fielded the jet in combat in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya? The answer is a big NO. Why? When you have the best combat jet available to you, you might as well use it and show the world its awesome might in a practical scenario. The Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale were used for ground attack duties and they came out with flying colors despite the fact that Libya had decent air defence systems which they had procured from Russia. Now you may argue (and I am sure you will) that fielding the F22 in these wars was not necessary given the effectiveness of the Teen fighters, so the question remains, WHEN is an appropriate moment to use the Raptor? Airshows and combat excercises?

    Another common excuse that F22 fanboys have is, it is not feasible to deploy the F22 so far away from home owing to the high level infrastructure and maintenance costs involved. Its like saying I have a Rolls Royce in my garage but I don’t use it because its expensive to maintain. Ergo.... its equal to the other junk I have lying around in my garage. Thats EXACTLY what the F22 is!. An expensive junk and a waste of tax payers dollars. It has never been used in actual combat and highly doubtful it ever will be.

    On a different note:

    Your attitude always has been, "a plane HAS to be superior than the rest by default just because it is American technology." This is the kind of attitude that I severly oppose! Hey, I am all for America being technologically superior than other countries and there is no denying that. However, if you are efficient in your work, does that automatically make your co-workers inefficient?
     
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  5. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    They are scared of fielding F-22 in combat as all the hoopla they have created about this ac will be blown off like sands if even one of them is shot down by SAMs or in A2A combat. But this will never happen. F-22 will crash before shooting any ac as the pilots will not be able to survive the oxy generators which they have fitted. LCA also has oxy generators and our stuff has not reported any problem till now. Maybe US can learn a few tricks from the nation of snake charmers and those who worship rats and monkies.

    What do you say AA?
     
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  6. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Well said! The USAF knows the shortcomings of the F22 and they know all too well, the potential hazards the raptor's glitches pose to the pilot. Plus, they haven't forgotten the F117 incident where a Serbian SAM shot it down and damaged another one beyond repair. Thus they did not want to take chances!

    Lastly, simulators do not define what a plane or a pilot's skills would be in a real combat scenario. Simulators and training exercises are merely tools to sharpen a Pilot's skills and battle strategies. Therefore making claims like "An F22 has a loss ratio of 1000:0 in simulator combat" prove zilch!
     
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  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The are three reason we have not used the F22 so far in combat is we did not have it in time for Iraq and it was not needed in Libya or Afganstan, there is another reason we dont sell the F22 or have used it so far it has top secret technology that we dont want compromised, until we can gain the maxium advantage from the new technologs use. The F22 is constantly being upgraded. Newest F-22 upgrade set for later this year - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times

    To the Russians, India is just a cash cow to keep their arms industry from going bankrupt. At the same time they are selling military equipment to India they are selling the same military equipment to China.

    Now your are trying to compare the PAK-FA medium multi-role fighter which is not yet fielded but is at least 5-10 years further in its development. The PAK-FA radar cross-section will be comparable to 4,5 generation Eurocanards in the best case the , PAK-FA will have 0,5 m2 RCS, that is 5000(!!!) times larger than RCS figure for F-22A Raptor. PAK-FA isn't even stealth aircraft, it's in a Eurofighter/Rafale class.


    PAK FA

    According to ARMS-TASS, Deputy Chief of Rostekhnologii Dmitriy Shugayev told the assembled press corps at the Paris Air Show that Russia’s PAK FA will need about eight years to reach serial production.

    This sounds like a very different story from what we’ve heard thus far. Most official pronouncements have talked about starting serial production in 2015 or 2016, and pretty much completing the run by 2020.

    No reason or context was given for what seems a pessimistic appraisal of PAK FA’s timeline. However, it might be connected to the challenge of getting “second phase” engines on the aircraft.

    Lets be honest by 2020 the cost of the PAK-FA could be more the F22 and F35.
     
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  8. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    In a sim evrything is generated based on algorythmes fed into the software. The measures employed by a defending fighter can never be accurately created in a sim. I have done so many hours in sim myself. The real combat adds a fear of being shot down and that brings out the mental ability and strength of a fighter pilot. That makes the difference. The guy who hits higher rage first while having a low BP wins. A guy who hits higher BP and lower rage loses.
    Most fighter pilots have brains which work to there exteme limits under pressure. And any fighter pilot who hits that limit first emerges victorious.
     
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    New Delhi: Russia has increased the prices of the latest defence equipments, by ten times, to be procured by India. The Russian defence manufacturing companies have sent their bid- ten times the opening price of the tenders.

    A leading newspaper daily, Sunday Guardian, carried a report which mentioned that Russian companies have increased the price of defence equipments like- rocket launchers, T-90 tanks, tanks ammunition to as high as ten-folds.

    For the procurement of 10,000 rocket launchers ministry of defence has estimated an approximate price of rs 130 crores, Russia is asking rs 4,000 crores for the launchers.

    Ammunition rounds of T-90 tanks, pegged at rs 980 crores, were offered at an opening price of rs 4,000 crores by Russia's Rosoboronexport.

    In another example, workshop equipments were offered at an increased price of rs 1,800 crores against rs 250 crores anticipated by the ministry of defence.

    The change in stance by the Russian companies is nothing new. Russia has a history of increasing the price of its defence equipments. The price of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was repeatedly revised.

    The aircraft carrier christened as, INS Vikramaditya’s was sold to India at a staggering cost of USD 2.3 billion against an initial price tag USD 974 million.

    India and Russia signed a multi-billion dollar deal in 2005 for the purchase of the Soviet-built Admiral Gorshkov carrier, but its delivery has already been delayed twice, pushing up the cost of refurbishing the carrier from $947 million to $2.3 billion.

    The delivery of the Admiral Gorshkov to the Indian navy is expected in December 2012.

    The warship is a modified Kiev-class carrier, originally named Baku. The ship was laid down in 1978 at the Nikolayev South shipyard in Ukraine, launched in 1982, and commissioned with the Soviet Navy in 1987.

    It was renamed after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. In 1994, following a boiler room explosion, the Admiral Gorshkov sat in dock for a year for repairs. In 1995, it briefly returned to service and in 1996 was finally withdrawn and put up for sale.

    The ship has a displacement capacity of 45,000 tons. It has a maximum speed of 32 knots and an endurance of 13500 nautical miles (25,000 km) at a cruising speed of 18 knots.

    Similarly, Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft also saw an astronomical increase in price in three years, by a whopping 155%, in 2010.


    "Never has so much difference been seen in price, even due to inflation, but Russia has had a record of over-pricing their equipment. Companies are aware that the buyer country has done some estimation of the price, but they may not know the actual price the buyer country has in mind," said a source.


    Wonder what a PAK-FA will cost in 2020?
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    This is one point I will fully agree with you. Russians are exploiting us to create weapons for themselves which will never be shown/shared with India while they will continue to sell similar tech to china so that we stupid indians continue to buy their junk.
    What option do we have? It gives us tech which we modify and make better which niether russians nor chinese can ever make out. It gives us a threshold to work on and evolve. You shud have taken India as ur partner in F-22. The aircraft wud have been far superior and really battle worthy than just being a show piece and good for nothing except killing its pilots.
    F-22 is surely drawing blood but of its own pilots.
     
  11. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Lets be honest I think only one pliot has died in an F22 crash and it is a very new and advanced technology. We are not even exporting F22s to our closest allies, much less to India. Also India is not all that respected for its ability in either manfactureing, maintance or operations for its aircraft industry. Nor does India's long relationship with Russia and the Russia Aircraft Industy give the US any reasonable hope the very expensive and top secret technology of the F22 will stay out Russia hands.
     
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Russia's Centre for Analysis of World Arms Trade predicts that the PAK FA will be available for export in 2025.[81] Though this "export version" may refer to the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA.[82] The FGFA being the "main export version" of the base T-50 platform.[83]
    By 2025 I would expect drone combat aircraft will rule the sky an manned aircraft to be obsolete.
     
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    2014 it will all change. are you ready. let this italian waitress and plant of Russia go away.
     
  14. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    India has evolved. we have refused the PAK FA as our FGFA. We need changes. This is not the ac we wanted and we will have copy right on whatever finally becomes FGFA. FYI the development work on FGFA has yet to start. It may draw on some techs from PAK FA but it will be a totally new ac.
    BTW, Every arm of Indian defence forces wants to break away from russian equipment and want Indian tech. GOI has now finally allowed private sector to compete for Indian armed forces orders. Most private players have JVs with western firms none with Russians. That shud tell you the story. But the JVs with US firms will always be no go as you guys put sanctions faster than a man can sneeze.
     
  15. neil_diablos

    neil_diablos Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Okay in that case going by your theory, F22 and F35 will also be obsolete by 2025, both being manned aircrafts. So either your theory is seriously flawed OR you are absolutely right and that the USAF govt is run by a bunch of morons to be spending billions on the F22 and F35 programs. Take your pick 'cause you can't have your cake and eat it too!

    When the first prototype was developed, Sukhoi had clearly stated the T-50 would be as stealthy as the F35 but less stealthy than the F22 as they deliberately sacrificed a certain degree of stealth for super maneuverability. So...all in all, we can expect quite a potent platform from Sukhoi as the T-50 matures.

    By the way, you still did not answer my question....if the F22 was not required to be fielded in Libya or Afghanistan, WHEN or WHAT would be the perfect situation to deploy the Raptor?
     
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