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F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    You sure about the manoeuverability in the YF-22 being superior to the YF-23?

    Without TVC being the key note. The ATF requirements outlined an aircraft designed to supercruise for long ranges, which is exactly what the YF-23 was built to do, but in no way did it skirt on the manoeuverability marks. When they say that the YF-22 is more manoeuverable, how would that factor in if both exceeded requirements?

    But I digress: My question refers to the selection of the YF-22 based on the USAF's own changing philosophy. For an aircraft expected to carry massive amounts of internal fuel and weaponry, supercruise long distances, and be virtually undetectable, the YF-23 seems to have been the more logical choice. Then why was the YF-22, and aircraft with admittedly lower internal volume, lower speed, and allegedly increased manoeuverability picked?

    The YF-23 had superior stealth performance, more intricately designed IR-reduction measures, manoeuverability at the transonic regime, longer range, superior speed. WIth the size of the ATF programme, and the assertions that both aircraft met and exceeded project goals, it is reasonable to assume that the McDonald Douglas support scheme was also likely fairly comprehensive. The YF-22 on the other hand: apart from the stealth aspect, it seems basically to be built upon 4th generation principles. And our resident redneck will blow a gasket reading this (if he can read a long series of words strung together without his head exploding, that is), but is it not likely that the USAF compromised on their requirements due to some sort of outside influence, leading to the selection of the YF-22?
     
  2. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  3. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Aaand I already explained everything about BVR combat.

    Israeli made two real BVR shots, both scripted outside of combat to "prove" BVR theory. Otherwise, they preferred to close to WVR - yes, even in F15s.

    Desert Storm, enemy with no radar, RWR, ECM. Mostly non-manouvering, BVR shots missed whenever target changed course sharply.

    Serbia, enemy with no radar, RWR, ECM. Non-manouvering.

    Not entirely, no. It only seemed logical, considering that it YF-23 did have superior stealth. But then again, I never really researched YF-23, considering it is unlikely to get into active service of any air force in the world, although, when I take a look at airframe, it does point towards low drag and low wing loading, possibly, if lifting body is included.

    But if YF-23 was as manouverable as YF-22, and that without TVC... it would literally blow today's F22 out of air, and still manage to come home for a lunch.

    YF-23 Black Widow II

    I only wonder what costs would have been.

    Well, bribes are standard matter-of-course in any post-eighties US weapons selection process, so yes, it is quite likely.

    First video says it all: YF22 and YF23 have been set impossible goal. 22 failed. Spectacularly.
     
  4. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    If the US goverment tried to script, or in any way try to influence the exercises at Red Flag for poltical reasons the people there would not put up with it. They would have a cow and it would be all over the news. Was another of the reasons I knew the article was bogus.
     
  5. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    And why would mainstream media acknowledge that exercises were scripted? Besides, it was US generals scripting exercises to influence Government, not Government scripting exercises to influence... someone.
     
  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Our media would love a story like that and the pliots would not put up with the exercises being scripted. If you know american pliots they are aggressive and offensive, they would take on God himself it they thought it was in the best interest of the US airforce.
     
  7. kaku

    kaku BANNED BANNED

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    It seems that you are biased. Tell me one engagement of F-15 or even F-16 with a 4.5 gen figters.
     
  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    in 1982, there were no Rafale or Eurofighters, but MiG-23s- MiG-25/31s and MiG-29s.

    F-15 destroyed MiG-23s and MiG-25 in 1982, that is proven even by arab and Russian sources.

    In 1991, again F-15 destroyed MiG-23 and MiG-25 and MiG-29, Rafale and Eurofighter were prototypes.

    In 1999, again F-15 downed MiG-29s.

    Now in 2012 F-15 is an old design, but it has proven to have downed the best it has faced.

    Today F-22 has replaced F-15.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  9. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    F-15 was designed as a dogfighter that was proven in 1982; in 1991 F-15`s fired AIM-7s that did a good job downing MiG-23s, MiG-29s, and Mirage F1s, the jet was superb in 1981, 1982 and good in 1991
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  10. kaku

    kaku BANNED BANNED

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    So, that proved it not shot down a single 4.5 gen fighter. F-15 has shot down only da vinci's era design and doesn't prove as best fighter. If you not shot down same level plane then it prove that it still not prove itself as best plane.
    Shooting down the small birds with BVR capability doesn't prove anything.
     
  11. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Actually, it doesn't prove anything. The MiG-29s that the F-15s engaged in combat with were downgraded, pre-1988 export models with barely any BVR capability and very limited electronics and communications systems. They were downgraded, 1st tranche Soviet 4th generation fighters.

    No western aircraft has engaged in active combat with Russian 4.5 generation aircraft.
     
  12. kaku

    kaku BANNED BANNED

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    Yeah, that the same thing I was saying. The western aircraft was always engaged in low developed fighters with compare to them.

    Their is not single instance in the time of world when the western fighters engaged with same level counterpart.
     
  13. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    those are pure excuses, in 1982 Syria was well armed, same was Iraq in 1991.

    Su-30MKI, Rafale and Eurofighter all are 2000s jets, they entered operational service post 2000, so you are not even historically correct, in 1991, F-15 had a match in MiG-29, Iraq had AWACS, the reality is numbers and better training gave the victory of F-15, in 1991 and 1982, the F-15 was well flown and outsmarted its rivals.

    If MiG-23 and MiG-29 achived kills well that is matter of debate in the west, Russian sources admitt the F-15 was an excellent jet in both wars
     
  14. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Syrian and Iraqi AF's were well armed.
    Is that what they print in Mexican newspapers nowadays. Your beloved F-15 has never faced a true challenge. It always has had the benifit of EW and AEW&C aircrafts as well SEAD runs performed by CM's and B-wateva going before it. It has never had to penetrate an untouched airspace as amply shown in each and every war it has faced. No one doubts that it is an excellent plane but you people shouldn't overglorify your techs at the expense of Russian or European technology.
     
  15. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Why you try to spin it in order to justify a fallacy.

    in 1982 the best Russian fighter was the MiG-29 only operational in Russia in Kubinka and the best interceptor was MiG-31 only operational in russia, best fighter of France was Mirage 2000.
    Su-27 was not operational and was only in test program.
    In 1991 was the same but Su-27 was then operational

    In 1999 was the same adding Su-27 and Su-33.

    Only after 2002 you started having rafales and Eurofighters and a few J-10s and Su-30MKIs.

    Do not lie to your self F-15 was a great aircraft from 1974 to 1999

    The Iraqi MiG-29 pilots were not rookies but the creme of the creme and the best fighter pilots with combat experience, and Syria was replenish by the Soviet Union in 1983 with newer hardware, this allowed Syria to down A-6s and Kfirs and perhaps even a F-14 but this was in 1983.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Syria in fact recieved even MiG-23MLDs in 1982-1983


    The US has lost fighters but it is debatable if fighters down them

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
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