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F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    And what is the relation of all this with what I said. And again with the same rhetoric of Iran and Syria. The core of your argument has been debunked, stop spinning around in circles.
     
  2. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    too much talking and little facts of your part Iraq was defeat and Syria was the same and no Su-30MKI was operational in 1982, niether any Rafale or Eurofighter was operational in 1991.
     
  3. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Wake me up when you find a war in which F-15's had lead an attack on any of the those 3rd world countries.
     
  4. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    You are just excusing the defeats of MiGs and Sukhois.

    In 1982, the MiG-23 was not more manoeuvrable than the F-15, niether it had better radar.
    If the war would had broken between the warsaw pact and NATO, the MiG-23 only chances were overwhelm the F-15 in numbers and only execute high speed dashes from multiple directions where 2 or 3 MiG-23MLs would had attacked a single F-15.

    I know you do not know what happened in the Bekka valley, why Syria was defeated.

    To start, Syria had mostly MiG-21s, a handful of MiG-23MFs and few MiG-25s, so when they clashed, the MiG-23s were vectored without the assests the warsaw pact had, such as ground stations, so the Israeli jamming was enough to render useless the Saphirs.
    So the slaughter of MiG-21s and the attack MiG-23BNs was inevitable, only 6 MiG-23MF dedicated fighters were downed though.





    Боевое крещение МиГ-23 произошло в небе Ливана. В целом, истребители ВВС Сирии в ходе активных боевых действий с 6 по 12 июня 1982 г уничтожили в воздушных боях 42 израильских самолета (в том числе, как минимум, пять F-15A и шесть F-16A), а также один ДПЛА, потеряв при этом четыре МиГ-23МС, шесть МиГ-23МФ, 26 МиГ-21бис и 11 МиГ-21МФ. Кроме того, израильским истребителям F-16A удалось уничтожить семь Су-22М и несколько МиГ-23БН.


    So in simple words Syria never had the numbers to overwhelm the F-15, the Russians knew the MiG-23 was only a match for the F-4.


    In 1991, things were similar, the americans used UCAVs and AH-64s to destroy radar stations.


    [​IMG]

    The Russian accounts i have read mention some F-15s were downed, in 1983 mention at least 3 and in 1982 5 F-15s.

    4 октября в бой впервые вступили и новые сирийские МиГ-23МЛ, в относительно короткий срок сбившие с "сухим счетом" два израильских F-15A. Несколько позже они, также без потерь, уничтожили еще один "Игл" и один "Фантом". Эффективные ответные удары (не в последнюю очередь - удачные воздушные бои МиГ-23МЛ против F-15A)

    However some Arab sources, admit Israel defeated Syria..

    However it is a fact Israel won the air battle, the Arabs have not produce the amount of evidence the Israeli have, true, Israeli pilots were downed in 1982 and there is proof, but the amount of evidence favours Israel.

    1991, was similar because, the Iraq lost the war, plus the US had air superiority and controlled the Iraqi skies.

    The MiG-29 is credited with F-14, Panavia Tornados kills acording to some Russian sources and the MiG-23 with an F-16 and a Tornados kills.
    But overall the F-15 ruled thanks to superiority in numbers and technology.

    The reality is the F-15 was a match to all the MiGs it faced.

    If you do not believe me read this Russian linkhttp://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig23liv/mig23liv.html
    Israeli pilot downed over lebanon on june 1982 after its release
    [​IMG]

    http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/lebanon-losses.htm
     
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  5. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Yes, this entire argument about MiG-29s and F-15s is relevant, because the thread title is "F-15 analysis expanded"... oh wait...

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    It is quiet relevant because the F-22 is quoted to have downed in mock combat 12 F-15s against 0 losses, so if the MiGs have failed against the F-15 why they are going to do betters against F-22?

    watch from minute 6



    and this video from minute 2:30

     
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  7. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    F15 concept was turned from pure heavyweight interceptor with all manouverability of 747 into dogfighter it is now by Fighter Mafia. Rest, I have already explained.

    Pilots DO put up with exercises being scripted, every exercise is scripted in some way, only difference is how much leeway script gives for improvisation and "out of box" thinking. When F15 failed to demonstrate decisive superiority over older F5E, more and more limits were put in until it went F15s way (With 2 F–15s pitted against 1 F–5, the F–15 was better in the ratio of about 5-to-1. In 1-on-1 jousts, the F–15 was 3 times as successful as the F–5. As the number of aircraft in the arena became larger and more target rich, with 4 F–15s vs. 4 F–5s, the success ratio dropped to about 2-to-1. When the protagonists were 4 F–5s vs. 2 F–15s, the success ratio tended to 1–to–1). F15s combat record, meanwhile, comes down mainly to skill and doctrinal superiority of air forces which were using it, althought technical inferiority of most opposing forces also helped a lot.

    MiG-23 was never intended to be equal of F15, it was nowhere as advanced and manouverable, Su-27 was, with MiG-29 being intended to counter F-16.

    Because reality does not conform to US generals' ideas of how air war should be happening.

    It is relevant because MiG23MLD and Averageamerican are trying to prove that, somehow, USAF's successes against planes flown by undertrained pilots, with no sensors and no ECM, with constant AWACS avaliability on US part as well as US numerical superiority, are somehow indicative of USAF's ability to win a war against comparable air force at BVR... which is exactly what F22 and F35 are supposed to do. And that, somehow, exercises in which F22s used simulated BVR missiles with perfect or near-perfect probability of kill against enemy which was using outdated Soviet tactics and was not allowed to shut down IFF, use anti-radiation missiles, radar warners, IRST, and in which unreliability of both BVR missiles and whole IFF system, even without OPFOR shutting it down, was not simulated, and where no attempt was made to simulate different costs of planes - going by which 10 F22s would have to face anywhere from 42 to 68 F16s, or 25 to 41 F15 - as wasn't different fleet readiness, are somehow useful for determining actual effectiveness of F22 in real combat.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
  8. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    let us see if the Russians think like you do


    В то же время МиГ-23 несколько уступал F-15 как по максимальной, так и по минимальной скоростям (впрочем, превосходство "Игла" по скорости было скорее теоретическим: на практике "2,5-маховый" F-15 не мог превышать М=2,3). Слабой стороной "двадцать третьего" явилась худшая горизонтальная маневренность по сравнению с новейшими американскими машинами. До скорости 1200 км/ч МиГ-23 имел меньшую располагаемую перегрузку, чем F-15, а следовательно, и меньшие угловые скорости разворота, а также большее время виража (проигрыш МиГа по установившейся угловой скорости разворота на скорости 900 км/ч составлял для различных высот 2-6╟/с). Однако при скоростях свыше 1200 км/ч преимущество постепенно переходило к МиГу. Несколько уступал МиГ-23 американской машине в разгонных характеристиках при угле стреловидности 45╟ и маневрировании с перегрузками, близкими к предельным. Это позволяло F-15 в ходе боя постепенно накапливать превосходство в энергии (по скорости и высоте). Потребная скорость ввода МиГ-23 в вертикальный маневр была также несколько выше, чем у F-15. Максимальная высота ввода в петлю Нестерова для МиГа составляла 4000 м, а для F-15 - 7000 м, при этом в верхней точке вертикальных маневров МиГ-23 имел меньшую скорость, чем "Игл".

    This says the MiG-23 never was able to compete in turn radius with an Eagle niether has better vertical agility turn radius or basicly a loop turn


    [​IMG]

    This graph shows the F-15 is not as inferior as you say, in fact at near 1100 it is superior to a Su-27

    [​IMG]
    So yes a F-22 is far much capable and will surpass a Su-27 as those currently operation in Russia and China.

    Su-30MKI might be slightly more difficult but it can not compete in Supercruise and stealth.

    Su-35BM is so scarse only 4 have been built to date
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
  9. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes, as it was later revealed by Colonel V. Dubrov in September 1983. The Syrian's fought with 'front-line' Soviet equipment with the assistance of several thousand Soviet advisors. The Beka'a Valley air combat between Syria and Israel resulted in 85 losses for Syria the Israeli 'Baz' F-15 accounted for 40 of the 85 Syrian losses.

    The Israeli objective was to eliminate the SAM battery in Beka'a Valley; they had a year to plan the operation they also had the opportunity to practice and fine-tune the operation in the Negev desert.

    The dismal performance of the Syrian's is largely attributed to heavy jamming of SyAAF MiGs by IAF. Once the Syrian MiG pilots lost the ability to communicate with GCI (controller) and receive intercept directives and evasive commands, they lost all discipline and became vulnerable. The Syrians jammers on the other hand, failed to return the favor, and the IAF was able to freely communicate using jam resistant equipment.

    Another surprise for the Russians and the Syrians was the all-aspect ability of Israeli Air-to-Air missiles. Defensive maneuvers and tactics that worked against Soviet missiles failed against the AIM-7 F, AIM-9L and Python. This caused a great deal of panic in the formation when SyAAF MiG pilots saw their flight lead suddenly explode without warning. It turns out the Russians didn't think to equip their fighters with warning receivers that covered the forward hemisphere.

    Finally, the use of the F-15's as tactical AWACS to direct combat when the IAF's E-2C AWACS was forced out by long range SAM with 180 nm slant range. The 'Baz' radar was able to track enemy fighters at tree top, this along with terrain following that permitted 'nap of the earth' ingress - capabilities no Soviet fighter possessed at the time.

    At the time, propaganda machinery on both sides (US and Soviet) was busy spinning the results of the Beka'a Valley campaign. The Americans claimed technological superiority of their fighters, the Soviet 'Red Star' claimed SyAAF shot down 40 IAF F-15's and proclaimed a great victory. The truth is somewhere in the middle, the IAF lost two fighters and technological superiority played a small role in the victory. The F-15 is a formidable fighter but it is just one element of a fighting force, I'm not sure why many here expect a single F-15 to fly into heavily protected airspace and destroy all enemies like a Bollywood action hero? They think of air combat as a boxing match, two opponents exchanging blows with no external influence. F-15 vs Su 30 or F-16 vs Mig 29, air combat is far more complicated. If you examine the Beka'a Valley campaign, the IAF had a year to prepare, plan and fine tune this operation. They employed SIGINT, HUMINT and reconnaissance over several months. Monitored activity and response of enemy fighters, faked attacks by sending in drones to light up enemy radar stations. The element of surprise was an immense advantage for the IAF. And then there is the sheer cunning and discipline of the IAF, they had the ability to blind the Syrians (jamming) but never revealed it to the enemy - not until the day they destroyed the SyAAF.
     
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  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Its a little hard for me to buy that 140 times the F15 shot down migs that all the migs every time was flowen by substandard untrained pliots.
     
  11. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Even if they weren't flown by dumb pilots [which they were], they still had poor tactics and no support systems like you guys. More so, no BVR [mostly]. I find it hard to believe that an avg. American takes kills scored over semi-decent, ancient Migs as something to brag.
     
  12. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Man while i admit in Combat the F-15 was good, i doubt it was so good as you claim.

    As far as combat yes the F-15 has downed many jets.
    It has downed around 4-5 MiG-25s
    around 9 MiG-29s, these are the only jets i would say were on par.

    The MiG-23 were slightly inferior as well as the MiG-21s and Mirage F1s

    In overall yes i think the F-15 was able to achieved superiority against equally trained pilots, since the Syrians, Iraqi and Serbs were more or less competent pilots.

    But the Victory of the F-15 is more the result of numbers and better logistics which gave to the F-15 the edge.


    this Russian video says the Su-27 achieved superiority in the USA over te F-15, in my personal opinion the F-15 is not inferior but neither superior to the Su-27 and MiG-29 in overall capability.

    So i would say a draw, but true the F-15 was good and has the better combat record of any jet in history, however i doubt no F-15 was ever down in air to air, but i doubt also the Russian claim a bit too
     
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  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I really find no rational reason for posting these details here when after the Red Flag with IAF, the USAF agreed that Su-30MKI is next to only F-22. I think this thread should be closed now.
     
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  14. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Expanded? I see nothing new but a rehash of the same crap.
     
  15. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    According to my sources, in NATO stimulations F-15 acheived a 1.3 kill ratio against Su-35. Note that although it does prove the inferiority of F-15 against Russian Su fighters, Su-35 is superior to Su-30s. In a BvR duel, F-15 will have a fifty-fifty against Su-30. If USAF F-15s can be armed with AIM-9X in time, they can even have equal footing in a dogfight, since that it is very difficult to dodge a short-range missile nowadays, given the agility of those new AAMs.About the number of fighters the Chinese have: the Chinese have both Su-27s and Su-30s. I do not know how many, but I know that they are buying an additonal 30 Su-30s, armed with anti-ship missiles to attack US carriers, if there should be a war between US and PROC.
     
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