Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,109
    Likes Received:
    908
    What, the Wikipedia article that practically EVERYONE has read?

    1)Those weren't NATO simulations, they were performed by a private corporation.
    2)They performed the simulations against the first few Su-35 prototypes made back in the mid '90s. The Su-30, more specifically the Su-30MKI, was developed from the Su-37 tech demonstrator, which itself was an improvement of the Su-35 prototypes. So no, the Su-35 you're referring to is not superior to most Su-30 models.
    3)The new Su-35, the Su-35S/BM is vastly different from the old one.
     
  2. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,109
    Likes Received:
    908
    Exercises are usually tailored to suit one side over the other.

    Indian Su-30Ks and MiG-21s dominated the USAF F-15s/F-16s at Red Flag. Does that make them superior to the F-15s and the F-16s? No, because the exercises were conducted at visual range and passive sensor operation. The same way, the USAF dominated the IAF when the exercises simulated BVR kills. Does that mean that every AMRAAM fired by the USAF will hit home during war time? Clearly not.

    The wars in the middle-east don't prove much, either way. The Iraq Air Force's best fighter during the first Gulf War was probably the MiG-23MS, because their MiG-29s were downgraded for export. They didn't have full BVR capability, they had a downgraded export radar, no data-links, and basically 1 AWACs prototype to support the entire air force. That proves the USAF's superiority as for as fleet strength and tactics are concerned, but it doesn't prove the F-15's superiority one on one with a MiG-29. A single USAF F-22 Raptor knocked out 197 F-16s in simulated battle. If they were to go to war with the UAE tomorrow, are they going to send in a single Raptor to deal with all of their F-16s?

    Which is why the discussion of the F-15 is irrelevant in this case. Because going by that logic, the MiG-21 Bison is the F-22 Raptor's biggest competitor in A2A combat.
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    15,359
    Likes Received:
    2,379
    Country Flag:
    United States
    It proves everytime you go up against american technology you get your rearend handed to you. In a war loseing your airforce sucks.
     
  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,865
    Likes Received:
    3,024
    Training and doctrine > technology.
     
  5. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    To start see the context


    In 1982, you had F-15s armed with Sparrows and AIM-9Ls and Python 3 against MiG-23MF armed with AA-7 and AA-8s

    and the F-15 and jamming forced the MiG-23s to fight in close where the F-16 were more agile than the MiG-23 and MiG-21.

    In 1981 the result according to the Russians were 1 F-15:2 MiG-25 downed.

    SANA the Syrian news outlet confirm around 40 aircraft lost, Israel only admits 2 fighters downed

    In 1991, the Russians acknowledged the F-15 was a good fighter.

    Here in 1991, both sides claimed their fighters down aircraft.
    Iraq originally stated that 20 F-16s were downed, the americans admitted 5 F-16s were downed all by SAMs, Russian sources claimed some F-16s, F-14s, F-111, Tornados and F-18 were downed by Iraqi MiG-29, MiG-23 and MiG-25 fighters.


    The USA admitts only a F-18 downed by a MiG-25


    In 1999 it was a slaughter the NATO forces had all the advantages.

    In 2006 the Indian air forces were flying highly upgraded aircraft, while the americans have not upgraded their F-15s in the same way.

    But an F-15 with AESA and AIM-9Xs will down MiG-21s like it did in 1982 and will be on par if not surpass a SU-30MKI.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    96
    Training + Doctrine + Technology = Victory. That is US.
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    96
    Think before you post.

    In wars, there are no rules. That means the best exercises are the ones with the least rules. For US, the best exercises are the ones where the rules are: Altitude limits and no live weapons. Am talking about fighters against fighters.

    That is about as best scripted as you can find short of going to war. So your complain here is that our exercises are too much like wars where combatants try their best to outgun and out man each other. Did the fighters back in WW II ignored the bombers? No, they went after them with as much viciousness as they can. Did combatants voluntarily reduce their numbers to match each other in chivalry? No, they will try their best to gang rape ONE fighter if they could, then move on to the next victim.

    This is a pathetic line of criticism against the F-22.
     
  8. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,664
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Country Flag:
    France
    well said :drag:
     
  9. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    96
    Readers,

    This is one of the biggest -- if not THE biggest -- misconception about 'stealth'. If this argument is true, then 'stealth' would never have been viable in the first place. The claimant here simply does not know what he is talking about.

    Volumetric radar cross section of single tree calculated from far-field S-band m
    Volumetric Radar Cross Section of Single Tree Calculated from Far-Field S-Band Measurements.
    Clear air radar echoes
    Flora, birds, insects, and hydrometeors are usually measured per volume, or that they are known as 'volumetric radar cross section', meaning it take a mass of them to generate a useful RCS. If one bird, one bee, or one leaf drop out of the volume, it would not be discriminated against a background unless it is so close to the seeking radar.

    US 'stealth' aircrafts are designed to be placed into that category by the seeking radar. The signals generated by these individuals are so weak that their Doppler functions -- per individual -- cannot be processed outside of the volume unless the radar is specifically designed -- millimetric -- for such a function.

    Radar shows birds, bugs flying away from the Okla. earthquake - StormWatch 7 | WJLA.com
    What happens inside the flock -- or volume -- is that constructive interference between each body amplify and localize the cumulative intensity. The sum is then received by the seeking radar and finally displayed on the scope and as the above source with its many illustrations showed, there is not a single discriminant (bird or insect) but rather a mass or simply a field of color from many individual bodies.

    And if there is a millimetric radar designed specifically for 'stealth', it would not be tactically beneficial anyway because by the time a single discriminant is visible on the scope as a 'stealth' aircraft, the human operator would be dead from a bomb dropped by that F-35 or B-2.
     
    2 people like this.
  10. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    96
    And what make you think that just because you have a Rafale somehow getting into the cockpit would magically endow you with the aggressiveness of the Red Baron, the philosophical insights of Boyd, and the eagle eyes of Glenn? Truly a less than mediocre thinking skills.
     
  11. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    Who're all those guys and how are they related to Rafale's cockpit?

    Rafale has got SPECTRA, RBE2, AREOS...but Baron, Boyd an' Glenn...? Never heard of these,
    perhaps they'll come as part of an MLU :sick:
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2012
  12. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,109
    Likes Received:
    908
    Manfred von Richtofen, or Der Rote Baron was a famous WWI pilot (no points for guessing of which nationality). Boyd is probably Richard Boyd, a philosopher. Not sure which Glenn he's referring to.

    As for how they relate to Rafale's cockpit; he's basically saying that sitting in a Rafale doesn't make you superhuman.
     
  13. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    881

    No, most probably he is talking about John Boyd
    John Boyd - USAF, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of Air Warfare
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    Ahhh...Richtofen Red Baron...i get it now. Roy Brown with his Sopwith Camel ticked off Baron's elevator
    up and downed his Dr I.

    I was tryin to pull his leg somehow by implying the what's the relation question. :laugh: thats it.
     
  15. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,109
    Likes Received:
    908
    Ah, yeah, probably.

    Completely zoned out on that one; when I saw the "philosophical insights" part in Gambit's post, what little I remember of high school "theory of knowledge" popped up in my head for some reason.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page