Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    881
    Why So?
     
  2. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    881
    He was trying to say that just by having Rafale you won't become invincible unless you have atleast those three qualities which these three legendary pilots had
     
  3. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    He shouldn't have had spoken out about Rafale sarcastically. What was wrong in The Enlightened's post
    anyway? F-15 so far hasn't gone up in real action against any new-generation aircraft like Rafale
    or Typhoon. It fought against only Su-22s/MiG-21s basically, and some MiG-25s, but they're all pretty
    much incapable against western top-notch equipment, they were even downgraded versions operated
    by Iraqis/Syrians etc.

    We would see Eagle's real worth and capability when compared to other aircraft of its generation. A good comparison
    would be between F-15C and Su-35BM. Not the other F-15As against all kinds of 2nd and 3rd generation
    aircraft.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2012
  4. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    Every pilot cannot have the same qualities of Richtofen or Boyd, you fight with what you have.

    Sometimes technology can substitute human skills to a considerable extent.
     
  5. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    881
    He was not saying against Rafale and about The enlightened Post, Gambit was just trying to make him think from different angles and perspectives .
    AFAIK gambit is an admirer of Rafale
     
  6. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    881
    This may result In what Happened with Iraq if opposite Pilot has those skills even if you have Rafale against F-16,f-15
     
  7. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    [QUOTE[He was not saying against Rafale and about The enlightened Post, Gambit was just trying to make him think from different angles and perspectives .[/QUOTE]

    Enlightented actually replied to Averageamerican's post that said of F15's 104-0 record. He also said in a
    way that averageam' should look at it fro different angles, F15 hasn't proven its worth in real combat against
    other aircraft of its own generation. F15 is a good plane but its invincibilty tagged by many cannot be justified
    unless it proves in combat against some Su-35BMs.

    Wow.
     
  8. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    Rafale against F-15/16 is reasonable. But F15 against MiG-21s etc. is like a big guy that bullies little
    children into a corner and beat em up then.
     
  9. Firemaster

    Firemaster Captain STAR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    881
    Leave Averageamerican
    he and his usual rants about South Asian Countries
    you should check history of his posts
     
  10. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,745
    Likes Received:
    9,636
    Country Flag:
    India
    Agreed.
     
  11. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,865
    Likes Received:
    3,024
    Then why is US cutting on training to finance F22 and F35, and why is it relying almost exclusively on as-yet unproven BVR combat theory?

    Read my posts. Exercises with F22 are about as biased in F22s favor as they can get - and are literally filled with rules in order to facilitate it. You either have trouble comprehending posts, or you're goddamn liar.

    That is a "realistic exercise" to you?
     
  12. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,865
    Likes Received:
    3,024
    I do know what I'm talking about. But you missed important point - as you always "miss" things you don't like - and it is that RCS is dependant on several things: shape of target, physical size of target, materials target is constructed from and wavelength radar is using. RAM coating can only absorb a narrow spread of frequencies, and these frequencies are determined by type of coating as well as its thickness. Result is that any type of RAM coating is useless against long wavelength radars.

    As for other way VLO plane achieves radar stealth - shaping - it is also only effective against certain frequencies - that is, those smaller than key shapings of the plane. But VHF radars have wavelenghts that are in area where wavelength is same as, or greater than, key shapings of plane. In second case, only thing that matters for RCS is physical size of these shapings - or, in case of sufficiently large wavelengths, plane itself.

    There are problems with those radars, but these problems are being worked out - or already are worked out, considering that several nations already use long-wavelength radar stations for early warning.
     
  13. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    I think you have to see the things in contex, how have happened.

    To start the US and Israel usually only admitt losses when the wreckage picture surfaces or the pilots are captured.
    Israel only admitts the pilots that were capture or displayed by the palestinians or other factions during the war.

    Israeli F-4 pilot Gil Fogel downed in 1982 over Lebanon after his release
    [​IMG]
    Russian sources claimed the Israelies lost 7 F-15s between 1981 to 1983.
    Now the Israelies also give a very inflated number around 90 Syrian aircraft downed.

    Now since both sides differ the only proof is a wreckage of an F-15.

    Have the Israeli proven MiG-23s, Su-22 and MiG-21 downed? yes they have there is evidence of that in wreckages, MiG-25? no they have not but the Russians admitt Syria lost 2 MiG-25s in 1981.

    Have the Syrians proven F-16 or F-15 were downed? well well to be honest the closest thing about it is a rumour a F-15 wreckage lies in Syria in a Museum.

    No definitively, not they have not.

    Have the Syrians proven other jets shot down? yes they have,
    they have proven Kfirs, A-4s and F-4s, from the period of 1981-1983.
    here is an Israeli Ah-1 downed in 1982

    [​IMG]

    and here a Syrian Gazzele downed in 1982
    [​IMG]
    This image is from a video and shows what it looks like a MiG-25/F-15 type aircraft but it looks more like a MiG-25 after being downed over lebanon in the 1980s[​IMG]
    this image shows the same jet downed falling to the ground
    [​IMG]

    Iraq is different, the evidence F-16s and F-15 were downed exists, the difference there is the US claims the fighters were downed either by ground fire or SAMs, while the Russians say Iraq claimed their MiG fighters down some of the american aircraft.
    [​IMG]
    However there is also evidence MiG-29s were downed

    [​IMG]

    however, MiG-25 was a match for F-15As; and MiG-29A, a match for F-15C,
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    15,359
    Likes Received:
    2,379
    Country Flag:
    United States
    I know some of the pilots that fought in both wars in Iraq.

    In an effort to demonstrate their own air offensive capability, on 24 January the Iraqis attempted to mount a strike against the major Saudi oil refinery in Abqaiq. Two Mirage F-1 fighters laden with incendiary bombs and two MiG-23s (along as fighter cover) took off from bases in Iraq. They were spotted by US AWACs, and two Royal Saudi Air Force F-15s were sent to intercept. When the Saudis appeared the Iraqi MiGs turned tail, but the Mirages pressed on. Captain Iyad Al-Shamrani, one of the Saudi pilots maneuvered his jet behind the Mirages and shot down both aircraft. After this episode, the Iraqis made no more air efforts of their own, only sending most of their jets to Iran in hopes that they might someday get their air force back. (Iran never returned the jets.)

    Thats about it, but I all heard were pilots complaining that the Iraqis were too yellow to fight, some times when an Iraqi plane was targeted by radar the pilots just bailed out befor they could be shot down. It really PO american pilots.
     
  15. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,109
    Likes Received:
    908
    Uh huh. And you got all of this from your pilot acquaintances, did you?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page