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F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Vitra there are two ways of make historical research on is propaganda in which you just argument historical facts upon one side`s account disregarding the other side`s account or you take both and compare both of them.


    Averageamerican is saying what he has available, but i doubt he is taking Iraqi pilots statements as other sources.

    Same is the Israeli Syrian war of 1982.

    Today thanks to Youtube you can see many videos of that time and thanks to the internet you can read original documents and different sources.

    See these are videos of Syrian MiG-23 fighters during training exercises from around the period of the 1980s








    this video has footage of one of the Kfirs claimed to have been downed during the war of 1980s plus one of the A-6 downed


    I ask you do you think if in future wars a F-22 is downed the americans will say it was downed by a T-50 or J-20?

    or even worse a Rafale or Eurofighter?

    No i do not think so, as always historians will need to sift the evidence and decide what really happened.

    In my opinion the Israelies have a slightly advantage in evidence in terms of their account, or in few words slightly more veracity about Lebanon 1982.

    The Americans well, i do not know but maybe the same they indeed ruled the skies over Iraq and Iran took so many jets that is probable the Iraqies were at some moment unwilling to fight.

    About the Iraqi fighters downing americans fighters i think the Russians might say some trues and the americans are not telling the whole story simply because the Iraqies did indeed down a F-18 and is likely more dogfights accurred.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
  2. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    But seriously, is it not the dream of the designers to make a plane that is so capable, that even a child with video game skills can sit in an operations room, and fly the UCAV like an expert, A total man machine interface where the plane can make roll, loops and turns just by mere touch of a button or pull of a stick without actually feeling the any G limitations? So ultimately we would have to worry about making a plane which is able to pull high Gs maybe 20 Gs and not worry about the pilot feeling any G force because he is flying the UCAV from base and his wingmen right next to him (just few feet away) and their operational commander in the centre table directing the movements of the planes as the missions come in.

    At least that is how I see the future of Air warfare, and the "flying experts" can be easily available at local mall playing video games..
     
  3. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    No. You do not.

    There is NOTHING above that address this ridiculous argument...

    This is the second time I have debunk this 'supersonic insects' nonsense. An honest man would admit he is wrong and not repeat the same debunked argument. But not you. What you are good at -- and you know it -- is to simply ignore the crux of the issue and cover it up with unrelated material.

    I have shown the readers -- with credible sources -- that insects, birds, and flora falls under the 'volumetric RCS' category, something that you did not know until I came along and taught you that. Now you need to show the readers equally credible sources that illustrate how to extract the Doppler component of a SINGLE bird out of a volume, then track it over time to determine its 'supersonical' speed.

    Get to it.
     
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  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    You brought up ordinary radar being able to track a bird, and acted as if it somehow means that long-wavelength radars will be useless against VLO planes. I debunked your original argument with new data, and I wasn't repeating claim you just quoted. What I showed above was completely unrelated to speed; it is related to interaction between various wavelengths and objects of different sizes, and has nothing to do with velocity something moves at.
     
  5. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Where did I say that long wavelengths are useless? The reality is that long wavelengths do not have credible TACTICAL advantages that you have been trying to mislead people into believing. Lockheed knew about the effects of meters long wavelengths even before the F-117 was built.

    You have 'debunked' nothing. You evaded using old data. Nothing new.

    Here is your argument again...

    This is clearly an attempt to mislead people by saying that the Doppler component PER INSECT can be extracted from a volume. What you posted may be unrelated but that is not what I am asking for. I showed the readers how insects (plural) and birds (plural) and flora (plural) are 'volumetric RCS', meaning they (plural) can only be detected when there is a mass of them.

    [​IMG]

    Do you see any individual insect or bird there?

    Say that there is an F-22 flying at 700 km/h inside that volume and because of distance, its RCS matches that of a real insect.

    Now show the readers some credible sources that explain how to extract the Doppler component PER UNIT inside a volume.
     
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  6. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    You obviously never heard about Rayleigh scattering region and resonance region. Basically, it means that stealth features of VLO fighter - shaping and RAM - will be useless against VHF radars, as RCS against those radars will be comparable to area of key shaping features of plane, such as stabilizers.

    I did give new data, but you don't want to see it.

    And you're acting like one mistake - which you made first, and I have now corrected - somehow means that my entire argument, which, by the way, does not contain it anymore, is invalid.
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Rayleigh VHF radars, RCS have been around since World War II, dont you think they were takeing into account they designed the F22.
     
  8. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Nothing to explain how can one extract the Doppler component of a single entity inside a volume. Can you stay on the question?
     
  9. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    They took these into considerations even before the F-117 was built, as in when the F-117 was only on paper. This guy really does not know what he is talking about. Notice how he evade my question.
     
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  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    I figured that out when he kept talking about dogfighting, that is going to happen about as often as a bayonet charge now days.
     
  11. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Then how standard Doppler radars do it? Your "Doppler signature per bird" is invalid simply because against VHF radar VLO plane's signature will be far larger than average bird.

    Except not. You won't always have all conditions that were required to achieve BVR performance as in Gulf Wars (incompetent enemy with no RWR, ECM or anti-radiation missiles - and no sensors in many cases, heavy qualitative and quantitative superiority, persisent AWACS avaliability...).
     
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Of course we will. Thats the way the US fights.
     
  13. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Last I heard, F22 was needed in case China attacked, not for shooting down poorly equipped and poorly flown Third World airplanes...
     
  14. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    The Doppler component exist whether the target is unitary or volumetric.

    So let us look at your argument again...

    Is it possible to discriminate discrete Doppler components among the individuals in a volume? Yes it is, but not for what we are talking about here -- a volume that create its own RCS and Doppler effect. So if you want to present to the readers that 'stealth' is useless because a bird or an insect does not fly at several hundreds km/h, then you need to show every how possible is that discrimination.

    Get to it.

    And you think we have trained for the possibility that we will encounter such an opponent? Your lack of military experience and creativity is revealing. We train for that possibility often enough that we know how to create conditions to match our advantages. Remember: In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

    You never understood that rule before so I do not expect you to understand it today.
     
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  15. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    And what is wrong with that? What is wrong with fielding superiority in quantity and/or quality when necessary? Sounds like petty jealousy to me.
     
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