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F22 analysis expanded

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Think thats why hes running down the F22 in the first place, does not seem to have much to do with reality.
     
  2. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    F22 provides neither. Especially first one.

    I have already explained that it is invalid, and why. You, meanwhile, only focus on that and ignore all the other arguments I made. I wonder why...

    Except there are rules that must be followed by both sides. Your missiles won't achieve perfect accuracy nor will IFF become flawless just because you wish it to be that way.
     
  3. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  4. G777

    G777 Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Listen, you have a great aircraft and though people might take the crap out of it (including me) I know that its a powerful aircraft however no aircraft cant be destroyed in a war. The F22 will be the best at defending the US from an outside attack but you must understand that it has few numbers, too great the maintenance. Even if you achieve a high kill ratio you must return to base, get refueled maybe even repaired then go back up again which takes time. The more time this takes the aircraft becomes a target for bombers and other weapons. The US has lots of aircraft but they are really old and the newer aircraft that other country's are making will be designed to perform better than the older aircraft.

    That's why I had someone from the US wanting to create a design for a new US aircraft fighter. Unfortunately I think the US would rather spend their time on the F35 which has the maneuverability of an F16.
     
  5. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    you are totally right

    see


    Moscow, April 4. The 500th test flight was made on the Su-35 flight tests program. The aircraft was piloted by the Hero of Russia colonel Sergei Bogdan, the distinguished test pilot. In February 2008 it was him who took off for the first time in that modern super-maneuverable multi-functional fighter.

    At present, the Joint State Tests (JST) of the airplane are going on. In March this year the fourth production Su-35S was delivered to the JST. The Su-35-1 and 2 carried out preliminary flight tests, during which the main established flight and technical characteristics of the on-board equipment and super maneuverability features were fully confirmed, stability and controllability characteristics, the characteristics of the power plant and the work of the navigation system were tested.

    The plane reached the maximum ground-level speed of 1,400 km/h, speed at altitude — 2400 km/h, the ceiling — 18 thousand meters. The detection range of targets in the “air-to-air” mode is over 400 km. This is significantly higher than that of the combat aircraft currently in service. The onboard OLS (optical locator station) can detect and track multiple targets at ranges exceeding 80 km. The aircraft complex is ready to undergo tests for combat use.

    The analysis of the amount of work already done allows a conclusion that Su-35/Su-35S has a much better flight characteristics compared to analogue aircraft in service. The airborne equipment of the plane allows solving a wider range of tasks set by tactical and technical requirements.

    The potential characteristics incorporated in the aircraft will allow it to exceed all tactical fighters of the 4th and 4 + generations, such as “Rafale” and EF 2000, modernized fighters like the F-15, F-16, F-18, F-35 and to counter the F-22A fighter.

    The serial production of the Su-35S is going on at the Sukhoi’s Y.A.Gagarin Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association (KNAAPO) in accordance with the state contract signed in 2009 to deliver 48 aircraft to the Russian Ministry of Defence by the year 2015.

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/news/company/?id=4834
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2012
  6. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    The F-22 is the sniper of air combat.

    You explained zilch. All you did was mindlessly recite the most general of principles while am asking about application specifics. There is no need to talk about everything at once, just one item at a time will be fine.

    So let us try again...

    I have shown the readers that birds, insects, and flora are classified by radar experts -- in practical applications -- as 'volumetric RCS' producers. What you said above is a claim that discrete Doppler components inside a volume is extractable and therefore 'stealth' is rendered worthless. The Doppler component is well known, even before the F-117. So show everyone a few credible sources that say discrete Doppler components inside a volume can be extracted.

    I showed everyone actual WORKING radar systems that detected a volume of insects. Not individual insect. But only a volume. So now you need to show us WORKING radar systems that can extract discrete Doppler components inside a volume that may contains tens of thousands or even a million individuals.

    Get to it.

    Yup...Just as I thought, you do not understand that rule at all.
     
  7. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    No...The F-22 is good at hunting and shooting. For defense of homeland or to deny the enemy his air power over his own homeland.

    I doubt that you ever unscrew a panel, let alone know what aviation maintenance is like.

    Assuming the other side can reach our bases. Please stop, you do not know what you are talking about.

    And expensive enough to discourage high volume purchase. Plus, no one have the combat experience that we have.

    The F-16 set the standards for the current generation of military aviation. And you do not know enough about the F-35.
     
  8. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    I agree with you that F-22 is best for defending American homeland, as you note that it has not been deployed in Action outside USA, F-22 like any machine can malfunction and if that technology falls into enemy hands.. Game over..

    There are some people who believe that F-22 is invincible, each plane is, and then it faces combat and realises where it actually stands. They did use the "invincible" term for Sabre jets and then they were shot in drones. The same was said about Patton tanks and then they were destroyed en masse in 1971 conflict.

    Presently I think USA is better off using F-22 over its homeland for two reasons
    a) The priority of homeland defence should be vital
    b) If the plane is deployed outside USA and is lost, then there are many interesting parties that might be interested in the wreck and lot to learn from it, and once the F-22 technology is dissected it is just matter of time.

    On other hand, F-35 is what F-22 is not, it a plane that actually America would deploy over hostile territory and even afford to lose one, because the technology in F-35 is watered down from F-22 technology, so even if someone manages to copy F-35, the Americans still would have the Ace (F-22)

    I am saying this on basis of an F-117 that was shot down during the croat bosnian war and I assume that the wreckage was purchased by PLAAF and that was then analysed and there are rumours that some of the J-20 was designed after analysing F-117 wreckage thoroughly.

    I do not think the USA wants to take such a chance with F-22. Presently F-22 commands superiority due to its hype as the first (and only) 5th Gen plane operational, and it has a significant edge, but if a single plane is lost, then all the advantage that America had due to the hype of F-22 would be lost.

    Did you wonder why F-117 was retired so fast? The planes which were inducted almost a decade before F-117 like the teens are still operational and F-117 has been retired. Just for your thought,
     
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  9. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    The question is how J-20 will fight F-22 or T-50 will down J-20.

    the radar figures given are based upon old soviet radar, power density increases year by year.

    Early Su-15s were considered long range fighters in the 1960s, today they are so short ranged than even a F-16 could be classified as a long range interceptor in 1965.
    Su-35S has a modern radar that it is claimed a detection range of 90-60km for a stealth fighter.

    Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.

    Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/
    and Russian SAMs have increased range that basicly, the survaibility of even F-117 was put into question and the same is for B-2.

    F-22 is designed to outspeed SAMs and AAMs due to supercruise, this advantage is up to a degree negated by Rafale, Eurofighter and Su-35BM, and put it into question by T-50.
    Yes F-22 is a great fighter, but as years pass, it becomes more and more obsolete, to the level by 2020 very likely will meet its match from Russia or China and who knows even Japan or India.

    The US is therefore developing the first concepts for the sixth generation fighter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2012
  10. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Russia and China posses the technology to render F-22 bases obsolete, and India with its 5000km range ICBM is doing the same, F-22 is not V/STOL it has to land and bases are not stealthy niether aircraft carriers.

    The GWI campain never had the threat of real attacks by ICBMs or other types of weapons in the level China or Russia can do.

    Yes against Panama, Serbia that lacked any long range aviation and ICBMS the F-117 could attack with impunity, Iraq was not better, it used unaccurate Scuds and always they knew the USA was going to win the war in technical terms.
    Only gullible people can believe the idea Iraq was a military power.

    True military powers have two features.

    First they are nuked armed and have the ability to use them via ICBM, bombers or SLBMs and second they build their own weaponry.

    As such Only India, Russia, China, Pakistan, Israel, England, France and the US are true military powers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2012
  11. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Every time in recent history a russian plane has gone up against an american plane, the russian has gone down in flames.. all you are talking is theory. the su 35 will go down in flames just like the rest of russian junk.
     
  12. MiG-23MLD

    MiG-23MLD Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Actually in Russia and other countries they have different view and different accounts, prove the Russians wrong and i can give pictures of american jets downed.
    The difference is your sources say SAMs downed the jets, in Russia and other countries they say fighters down them.

    I can assure you that if an F-22 is downed they will say SAMs down it as they usally do
    or another reasons

    "...another crash that did not happen at UH, but was one of our planes in the 42nd. EF-111A 66-0023 Crashed Feb 14, 1991 with 42nd ECS, Saudi Arabia. Crew killed. Crashed during combat maneuvering while being mistakenly targeted by F-15."

    http://www.raf-upper-heyford.org/Mishaps.html[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2012
  13. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    Because there is no need for it.

    Who?

    This is nonsensical. Same argument can be made for any fighter that is reputed to be 'top of the line', like the F-15 once was and still is quite feared. The F-117 was deployed overseas. So was the B-2.

    Like this...

    [​IMG]

    So what is your point?

    Please...NATO flew about 38 THOUSANDS sorties and only lost two aircrafts: One F-16 and one F-117. You are wrong if you do not think the US take into consideration the consequences of combat losses. If that is your belief, then no wars would have been waged since everyone would be too afraid of losing their best hardware.

    Am willing to be generous about that possibility. Do you know how long it takes for anyone to develop and field a fighter?

    My thought is that you do not know what you are talking about. The F-117 was retired because we got something better. When I say 'something' I do not mean the F-22 or the B-2 but that I mean we got better 'stealth' knowledge and technology.
     
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  14. gambit

    gambit FULL MEMBER

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    US 'stealth' aircrafts are designed to be placed into the 'clutter rejection threshold' by the seeking radar. Clutter is a necessary feature in every radar systems. Cosmic background radiation (CBR) is part of that EM spectrum. Do you want to see CBR on your scope? Of course not. You may not want to see hydrometeors (rain, snow, sleet, fog) but your meteorologist friend does. You may not want to see birds but your biologist friend does. So what clutter is -- Is an imaginary and arbitrary region where EM signals that matches certain criteria contained in a library are IMMEDIATELY discarded by the radar system.

    The B-2, F-117, F-22, and F-35 have RCS at 150-200 km so low that 99% of the world's radars dismissed them out of hand. It is only when a 'stealth' aircraft is within toss bombing distance -- approximately 50 km -- is when an air defense radar can detect it. But then it would be too late because the bomb is more than 3/4 of the way down. Do not be fooled and misled by your friend's blather about 'long wavelengths' freqs.

    [​IMG]

    Meters length freqs require powerful emitters and large arrays. A factor in an RCS is distance so even if the seeking radar is transmitting in meters lengths freqs, there is a point waaaaaayyyy out there that an F-22 is still an 'insect' to the seeking radar. As illustrated above on why the F-22 is called an 'antenna farm', that meters length transmission will be detected, analyzed, and countermeasures presented to the pilot. Meters lengths transmitters are ground based because of their large arrays and that mean line-of-sight limitation. So all the F-22 pilot has to do is descent...

    Horizon calculator - radar and visual

    Use the above link to calculate the radar horizon and see how TACTICALLY advantageous is your friend's HF/VHF/UHF radars. Not very.
     
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  15. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

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    very biased answer.:lol:
     
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