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F22 Analysis, News and Updates

Discussion in 'The Americas' started by Picard, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Also, if you have noticed, I have said that F22 would be excellent AWACS killer as well as good escort for VLO bombers (until VHF radars and other technologies mentioned make them obsolete). What I do not agree on, is that it can secure air supremacy.
     
  2. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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  3. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Yes and I agreed with you on this earlier. Our discussion on LPI vs RWR.

    The USAF can afford to use the F-22.
    Not akin to how they use their legacy fighter.

    AFAIK they have around 190 F-22s, can they afford to maintain them? At this number... quite simply yes, but come 10-15 years F-22s will be a pain in the a** when it comes to maintenance.

    The USAF can afford some F-22s, not a whole lot, not without approval and massive amount of funding...
    Which i might add they get very easily.

    Mate, we all wonder how it is that the USAF has so many Raptors, they are extremely costly, even for the USAF. How is it that they have them in that number?

    It's quite simple really, lobbyists from Kentucky go tell their representative, Lockheed Martin brings a lot of employment opportunities there. The representatives, raise an issue some bogus threat to national security, or threat to air dominance that may become a threat, eventually they all end up giving the green light for more overpriced toys.
     
  4. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Agreed.
     
  5. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    This is short F35 analysis:

    F35 analysis

    F35 was impossibly ambitious project – aim was to design advanced stealth, multipurpose plane which will replace F16 and F18 fighters, F117 bomber, F15E fighter-bomber, A10 ground attack craft as well as Harrier V/STOL jet and AV-8B, and yet remain affordable. And impossible it was.

    Like F22, it is still plagued with numerous problems. But even when these problems are solved, it will not be a good plane.

    DESIGN

    F35 is a stealth, "jack-of-all-trades" plane. In short, recipe for disaster.

    If one lookes at history, it can be seen that such designs are usually very expensive and do not fulfill any role well, flaws even more pronounced by radar-VLO requirements of F35s design. P-39 "Aircobra", while expensive, was a dismal failure. Me-210, while numerous, was utter disaster. F-89 didn't even make it to combat in Korean War. Even French Rafale, with its touted "omnirole" capability, is nowhere as ambitious project.

    F35 also shares most design failures of F22 – such as inability to fire off shots quickly – but also adds loads of new ones. Everything in its design is optimised for achievment of VLO performance versus radars; however, same technologies and techniques discussed in F22 analysis document can be used to detect F35 too.

    IR spectrum, it is not LO at all – no or almost no effort was made to cool down jet exhaust, and air friction cannot be easil neutralized.

    Also, due to its size, weight, shape and wing loading, F35 has all manouverability of a brick, and has absolutely nothing to compensate for it. While its touted ability to fire high off-bore missile shots is a-okay in theory, fact that it cannot effectively point a nose in direction of enemy will mean vastly reduced kinematic performance of missile, and it will be unable to target enemy planes with its cannon, which itself is either covered – similar as in F22 – or carried in external gun pod. All that means that its air-to-air performance will be disappointing – most likely, somewhere on par of what Mig-21 achieved against modern fighters, or even worse, since F35 relies on BVR engagement even more than F22.

    Its cockpit visibility is very bad – there is literally no rearward visibility, a feature usually found in bombers – fittingly, beacouse that is exactly what F35 is.

    Basically only positive thing about F35 is its inclusion of IRST in sensors suite, which is a major step forward in comparision to F22; however, even that is not enough to compensate for its shortcomings.

    FORCE SIZE AND QUALITY

    With unit flyaway cost of 208 million USD, and unit procurement cost of 304 million USD, it is barely cheaper than F22. Indeed, if F22 is any indication, F35 will be procured in around 600 to 700 copies, instead of 2443 planned. Also, current plan means that F35s testing will be conducted – and completed – before end of actual procurement; whereas it does make for better rate of production, it is more expensive, as potential flaws will have to be fixed (patched up) on large numbers of already operational planes, instead of just fixed in design.

    Whereas F15/F16 mix was a high/low mix in terms of cost, with F15 being primarly BVR-oriented plane with excellent dogfighting capability, and F16 being a dogfighter-turned-fighter-bomber, F22/F35 mix can safely be called ultra-high/almost-as-high. F35 also suffers from most same shortcomings of F22 itself, such as high unreliability and high maintenance costs, negatively impacting quality of pilots. That is result of cost overruns similar to those that have plagued F22 program, and which happened for similar reasons – unrealistical design goals being one of prime reasons.

    When combined with F22, it will result in force size of less than 1000 planes capable of air-to-air combat, once F15 and F16 are retired. It also can be expected to downgrade pilot quality in way similar o F22, and, as with F22, and most modern fighter planes, it cannot be mass-produced in case of unexpected large-scale war.

    CONCLUSION

    F35 is a fighter plane that is a sitting duck, bomber that cannot carry enough bombs to be noticed, close support plane that is so fast and vulnerable it will be more of danger to friendly troops than to the enemy, and stealth plane that cannot possibly hide. Except in hangar.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  6. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    ^^^Life cycle costs and underpowered engine are two other areas where they've dropped the ball on the F-35.

    The justification for the F-35's stealth during A2G operations doesn't make much sense to me. Its got a more limited payload than any other teen series fighter, shorter range, and higher cost of operation. In all, it would be smarter just to stick with an F-16, or get a multi-warhead RLV drone to acheive the same effect. Boeing have a very strong argument in favour of the Super Hornet, but amazingly, Lockheed Martin still manages to come out on top. Its like the YF-23 vs the YF-22 all over again.
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    You all are fighting the last air war, AWACS and dog fighting are obsolete, command and control will be Asymmetric made up- by a combination of satelites, drones and the electronic systems of the F22 and F35. Even out numbered 30 to 1 the F22 will dominated the skys because they will destroy so many enemy planes befor there location is even knowen the opposing plane will turn from the slaughter.



    Guess how many IAF aircrafts have crashed since 1970?

    The Indian Air Force (IAF) has lost 999 aircraft in crashes since 1970 and 39 percent of these accidents occurred due to pilot error, a parliamentary panel was informed by the defence ministry.

    That would mean the IAF has so far lost around 1,000 planes, including the latest MiG-21 crash that was reported Tuesday.

    Guess how many IAF aircrafts have crashed since 1970? | PRAVASI TODAY : NRI NEWS : NRI HELP

    If India had more experience in fighting and less in crashing they might like the F22 better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  8. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    AWACS obsolete - probably.
    Dogfight obsolete - no. Forces shut down IFF, radar and uplinks to avoid being tracked. Even without it, BVR missile performance is so bad it basically ensures WVR fight. Especially considering low F22 numbers.

    Outnumbered 30 to 1, F22 will get killed even if these 30 planes are Mig-19s. You need 3 F22s firing off all their BVR missiles to get a single BVR kill.

    If F22 turns radar on, it betrays its location. If it transmits data, it betrays its location. When it launches missile, it betrays its location. IRST and MkI eyeball will be name of the game. Even if it runs passive, it can easily be detected. I explained how. I explained why. Why don't you take a time and read it instead of spewing unsupported myths?
     
  9. Tailchopper

    Tailchopper Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Sounds like you have been reading too much Tom Clancy.
     
  10. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Entire USAF Command has been reading too much Tom Clancy, else they wouldn't be retiring F16 and A10.
     
  11. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Your still fighting the last war.,,,, One ,B-2 can perform the work of thousands of B-29s by “servicing” 80 “aim points” per sortie.The Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit (also known as the Stealth Bomber) is an American heavy bomber with low observable stealth technology designed to penetrate dense anti-aircraft defenses and deploy both conventional and nuclear weapons. The bomber has a crew of two and can drop up to eighty 500 lb (230 kg)-class JDAM GPS-guided bombs, or sixteen 2,400 lb (1,100 kg) B83 nuclear bombs. The B-2 is the only aircraft that can carry large air to surface standoff weapons in a stealth configuration
     
  12. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Or worse, since USAF is cutting on pilot training to fund F22 and F35.
     
  13. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    And how are bombers comparable to fighters? Bombers' targets won't run, won't evade and only sometimes shoot back... that is in no way comparable to job done by stealth fighters. You are mixing apples and strawberries and declaring them all watermelons.

    Besides, B29 isn't used anymore, and most wars see opening round done by cruise missiles and then bombers eliminate what's left.

    But nether B2, B29, B52 or F35 can do any close support. You know what CAS is?
     
  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Think about it there are 20 maybe more B2 stealth bombers they can place 1600 500 lb GPS bombs on precisely on targets any time any where, just as they did in the Iraq war. In addition there will hundreds of drones taking out targets, radar, defense, command and control. Sixty B52 with up to 100 GPS 500 lb bombs willl follow,, then up to 1000, could be 2000 fighters with up to 15 smart bombs each. Up to 10,000 to 20,000 smart bombs per sortie, each raid will do as much damage to targets the entire bombing campaign of world war II.

    Close Air Support, you dont have a clue about whats involved now days do you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxgWDLIYvdk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjP7hmBfYdA&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJYjeQgnjiQ&feature=related
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  15. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    First, we're talking about fighters here. Bombers can afford far more tradeoffs.

    Second, all they did was a showoff against targets defended by technology from same era as they are, or older. Considering F22s stealth tech is from 1990-s...

    Third, stealth planes are prohibitevly expensive
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012

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