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France and Germany to Develop New European 5th Generation Fighter Jet

Discussion in 'Europe & Russia' started by Vergennes, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    This one have no future for me.
     
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  2. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Airbus is very competent at designing passenger airplanes (the kind of aircraft that you could call a flying bus, or, dare I say, an air bus), and thanks to the Aerospatiale heritage they're also good at helicopters. That's all.

    For fighter aircraft, their resume is: Dornier (later subsumed into Airbus) worked with Dassault on the AlphaJet; Airbus Deutschland worked on the Tornado with BAE and Alenia; Airbus Deutschland and Airbus Spain worked with BAE and Alenia on the Typhoon. During the last fifty years, they've never made an entire design on their own. And the A400M is all the illustration one needs to know how they manage when they're trying to learn to make a new aircraft type. Sure, the Atlas is going to be a good aircraft; but with competent project management it would have been ready ten years earlier and at half the cost! Entrusting Airbus with something as strategic as the successor to the Rafale would be a colossal mistake.
     
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  3. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    If we look at the seriousness in controlling the budget and effectiveness of the plane, Dassault is far more serious than Airbus for fighter.

    French team (plane + engine + weapon system) is the sole european partner with a total scope and full effective last products (F1 + M2000 + Rafale)
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I found it weird since I interpreted it as France will have development programs for Rafale-replacement, FCAS-UK and FCAS-Germany at the same time. If this happens, I find the future of French aerospace extremely weird, very unrealistic for the small number of aircraft required.

    But if Germany goes for the F-35 instead all the way in 2040, that's not a good sign for the future of the "EU Army" or for France.

    I think Germany should be convinced to operate the exact same aircraft France operates. They should replace the Typhoon and Tornado with just one air superiority aircraft, and that aircraft should also be Rafale's replacement. Germany should instead join the Franco British FCAS.

    Initially I had assumed Germany showed interest in joining the Franco British FCAS, not make plans for their own dumb program.

    If the FCAS is indeed a strike fighter, it won't be a successor to the Rafale.
     
  5. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Keep in mind that in neither case are we talking aircraft, but instead system. France and the UK will work on drones that will serve as tech demonstrators for the stuff that they want to develop with the FCAS program. But the program isn't the drone; if that were the case it'd be redundant with the Neuron and Taranis. The drone is merely the support platform for the real program.

    With Germany, there's nothing solid at the moment, but it's the same kind of discourse -- they talk about systems, not about aircraft.

    From what is known in the public domain, the FCAS (both of them) are largely about concepts that are referred to as "net-centric warfare" and "interoperability". Stuff like guiding a drone swarm from the backseat of a fighter, using broadband data links for data fusion to get a perfect situational awareness, countering the enemy's electronic warfare capabilities, and so on. We're talking about designing methods to do that, and then codifying them into standard protocols that can be adapted on present and future platforms.

    Basically I do not expect the FACS-FG and the FCAS-FB to be duplicated work; at least not from the French POV. The scientists and engineers working with the British will keep closely in touch with those working with the Germans.
     
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    All of that's the software and networking aspects of both the FCAS programs. The core objective of both programs are the aircraft themselves. And if you are building a drone and a manned aircraft, then there's definitely no duplication of work.

    FCAS-FB
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-22-billion-anglo-french-fcas-phase-announced-422866/
    “We are now looking to transition to the next phase in 2017, which will prepare for the full-scale development of unmanned combat air system (UCAS) operational demonstrators by 2025,” the governments say.

    “This demonstration programme, the most advanced of its kind in Europe, will be centred on a versatile UCAS platform that could serve as the basis for a future operational capability beyond 2030.”


    FCAS-FG
    http://defence-blog.com/news/german...own-sixth-generation-stealth-fighter-jet.html
    FCAS will likely be a twin-engine, twin-tail aircraft piloted by two crewmen.

    Note the terms in bold. I am referring to only the hardware aspects of the two programs.

    If I am to draw parallels with Indian programs, then I would say the FCAS-FB is similar to the Ghatak program while FCAS-FG is no different from a dedicated strike AMCA (for the sake of discussion, let's turn the AMCA into a strike fighter). And the FGFA would be similar to Rafale-replacement, an air superiority design with multirole capabilities. Theoretically, all three classes can be independent programs.

    My contention is if this is how it's going to play out, then it's bad news for France because the two FCAS programs can easily take the shine out of a Rafale-replacement program, which I'd wager is going to be a more critical requirement for the ADLA. Basically, for the future of French aerospace, FCAS-FG must not happen or it should be a Rafale-replacement program.
     
  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    And they don't intent to either. The Airbus fighter is a proposal by Germany and Spain and now with President Macron backing it, it's clear that Airbus France will be part of the project too.
    So we already have the same players as in the MALE UAV programme and as we see in other Airbus products, Safran and Thales will provide subsystems too.

    So there is no issue anymore about France being part, but on how to get the project rolling, since you need to address different requirements. Initially Germany and Spain wanted to replace Tornados and F18 Hornets, but the time line doesn't make that possible anymore. That's why this project is aimed at the EF and Rafale replacement now, which begs 2 questions...

    1) What options are left for the Tornado / F18 replacement?

    2) How does France intend to replace the Rafale M?

    And these questions can have impact on the decisions of the Airbus fighter.
     

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