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France and Germany to Develop New European 5th Generation Fighter Jet

Discussion in 'Europe & Russia' started by Vergennes, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    No the ship continue to sail. Macron is pushing hard into the EU and it doesn't mean that it does it to the detriment of the French industry. Airbus is perfect for civilian aviation but it is catastrophic for military aviation.
    What I have seen is the lack of money for eurofighter upgrades, so now they are trying hard to close the gap with the Rafale. Even when France wanted to reduce its military spending to meet European rules, it sought to reduce recurring expenses (the number of Rafale purchased) but not development expenditures. For example, the launch of the F3 R program was done during the period when we wanted to buy less than 11 Rafale a year, and that represented an expenditure of one billion € which is the production of one year.

    It is not doubtful, the Rafale market is global, not European, and we have already exported 84 Rafale while the Eurofighter has exported only 127, so that 32 per participating country. And the current export potential is now much greater for the Rafale than for the Eurofighter.

    :rofl:

    Do not worry for Dassault it will still exist after Airbus, Boeing and Lockheed are gone.
     
    Vergennes and Shekhar Singh like this.
  2. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    There was two problems :
    1) France team loose the occosaion of a first sell with Morocco because of prices issues between govt. and Dassault. A shame !
    2) Since Clinton, USA did all it was possible to kill the Rafale, because they had nothing to oppose (F16 too old, JSF too new).

    add that the previous ceo of Dassault, Edelstenne, wasn't as skilled as the others.

    It wasn't a specific Dassault problem.
     
  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    This program is meant to be a Tornado replacement for Germany. So doesn't this mean it's simply a strike fighter? I see more sense for Germany to get involved in the unmanned FCAS with Britain and France than launch a separate program.

    Yep. Like the FGFA or F-35. But Germany won't agree to be a junior partner.
     
  4. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    F-35 workshare can only be based on skills because the sheer number of planes produced means there's enough lower end quality work en masse.

    I doubt that there will be enough planes ordered initially to allow that luxury for this franco-german project.
     
  5. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I was referring to development, not production.
     
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  6. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant IDF NewBie

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    Also, the biggest hurdle for this project will be the engine imo. No European company comes close to Rolls Royce in the engine department. As a bonus, they have the fifth gen engine experience working on the F-136 with GE.
     
  7. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    You enjoy twisting the knife in a fresh wound, don't you? :achmed:
     
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  8. BMD

    BMD Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    With a lot of effort it's possible that Snecma might finally catch up with where RR were in the mid-80s (EJ200).
     
  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    And Airbus belongs to the French industry too, so ideally he wants Dassault to join the project, but he is not dependent on Dassault to move the French industrial interest forward in the EU.

    And that's why Dassault plays no role for the EU defence, therfore needs to either play along now, or focus on civil aviation only.

    Not really, but that's an issue for another thread.
     
  10. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    There you have it + the failures in the UAE, Brazil and India, which all are based on Dassault being not flexible enough to customer demands, or to fix the deal before elections.

    All that gave an excellent fighter far less orders than it deserved and that also makes Dassault not a strong player within the EU aviation industry. Airbus and Saab are the leading companies now and it would be smart for Dassault to team up for Neuron and the new UCAV with the same paenters, instead of betting on the lost case of UK and BAE.
     
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Germany and Spain alone have more than 200 EFs to replace, France has 180 Rafales, even if we would take out the naval once, we are looking at 300 sure orders. If Sweden and Saab would join, you can add another 100 to replace Gripen C/Ds and Belgium, as well as Italy have shown interest already. Add exports and of markets where EF, Rafale and Gripen competed each other and you have big potential, if the customers can afford it.
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Why would they have issues with that? The EJ200 is a joint development including German or Spanish companies. The most logical choice would be an upgraded EJ200 for example. Engine is actually the easiest part, the main problem will be different requirements of France and the rest of the EU wrt Carrier fighters. Unless they want to go for F35C, they need a new carrier version as well, which however no other customer needs. So the question is, what the French do about it?

    Personally I think it's high time for a joint EU carrier under French leadership, but with joint funding and crews. There is no sense to talk about joint defence but be separate in terms of power projection.
     
  13. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    It was a financal failure, because UAE wanted a heavy modified Rafale, but didn't want to pay the price (maybe over estimated...)

    Eurofighter was consulted just after. This was a TECHNICAL failure, because the plane was short technically.
    Honnestly, the first case is far better.

    Brazil : a poor country in peace with its neighbours.... They choose the lighter and shorter legs plane...

    India : ? as ar as I know the last purchase was.... 36 Rafale (and some others to come)
     
  14. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    The director of Airbus Defense & Space agrees with Dassault!

    Golden rules for cooperative programmes by @hodike at @EUDefenceAgency The selection of suppliers & locations should be an economic one and not driven by politics The “lead nation” concept is a decisive success factor Need to rethink our attitude towards juste-retour demands

    [​IMG]
    02:35 - 23 nov. 2017
    https://twitter.com/FeugierJulien/status/933645111212290048
     
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  15. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Not entirely.

    Dassault says the suppliers should be chosen according to skill, Airbus says it should be according to cost. There's a huge difference here, because the former will prioritize components that are guaranteed to work but might be expensive, while the latter will prioritize components that will be cheap but are probably complete crap.
     

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