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France offers 25% discount to India on purchase of 36 Rafale jets

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tusharm, May 6, 2015.

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  1. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    you got it all wrong man
    pl read the complete article for which you have provided the link - dont spread disinformation i cant believe you misunderstood the article to such an extent

    also there is no price mentioned for the 40 on offer in that article

    the article clearly says
    40000 crores for 126 rafales in Jun 2010 i.e. 318 crores for each rafale
    now you are making it sound like 1000 crores for each rafale was offered in 2010

    and in 2015 1000 crore / rafale is a steal for 36

    read this and the highlighted part

    France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters
    A French company offered to sell 40 of its state-of-the-art aircraft Rafale fighter jets to India for a bi-lateral air exercise on Friday. An Indo-French joint exercise is to be held somewhere in India in 2011 – 12. The offer was made by the maker of the Rafale and Mirage fighters, Charles Edelstennie, who is also the scion of the Dassult family. Dessult is a multi-billion French military and civil aerospace company.

    The chairman and chief executive of Dassult said, “We know the Indian Air Force, with which we have a decade-long close association, is facing force depletion. So we are ready to supply 40 Rafales, the world’s first omni-role fighters to India, in a short span of time.â€￾

    The officers of French Air Force discussed the idea with the Indian Air Force team, which is now in France for a tri-lateral air exercise in which the Singapore air force is also involved. According to Edelastennie, Rafale fighters could be an interim sale to India to acquire 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft at cost of Rs 40,000 crore. He said, “It is fulfilling the needs and tasks of the French air force and navy globally.

    An Indian Air Force officer, who is the part of the Indian continent for Garuda-2010 exercise in Istres air base in France, said, “At present, the talks for the next Indo-French exercise are also on and the French officials have expressed their desire to bring the Rafale aircraft for the next joint air exercise likely to be held in 2011-12 in India.â€￾ The current exercise also reached its final stage and exercise will be finished tomorrow. K K Nowhar, Air Marshall of Indian Air Force, who visited the Indian contingent said, “Our participation in the exercise has reinforced the manner in which we conduct our operations.â€￾

    Read more: France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters - All India Today France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters - All India Today
     
  2. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Dassault said the price didn't change, and nobody in GOI said the contrary. So the price didn't change.
     
  3. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    that is the point

    that reduction in costs of the deal - due to No ToT & No industrial infra costs should be huge and it should be more than the additional costs of weapons + Maintainance ( remmember Rafale has lower maintainance - time to prove the claims)

    training of Pilots & Maintainance (first line) crews were already a part of the original MMRCA deal so that cannot be tacked on to this 36 deal as extra chargeable

    so the costs of 36 - per piece should be less than the 126 per piece deal value - that too original quote based on which dasault emerged L1
     
  4. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It is obvious that it is the interim sale which is at cost of Rs 40,000 Crores, not the acquisition of 126 MRCA, India would have signed immediatly.
     
  5. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    if it is the latter it will only be imaginary or on paper

    as they will scale the price back up by more than 25% citing maintainance & wepaons and jacking up those quotes
     
  6. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    there is nothing obvious

    the deal values reported in 2010 for 126 was 40000 crores which would be 10 BILLION DOLLARS in 2010 - which conforms to the various media reports speculations at that time

    even the talk of more than doubling of rafale deal costs today speaks of 90000 crore - 120000 crores

    pl check it out or better browse this thread for news in 2009 / 2010 to check what was the reported or speculated deal value for 126 rafales in 2009 & 2010

    reread his line
    "According to Edelastennie, Rafale fighters could be an interim sale to India to acquire 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft at cost of Rs 40,000 crore."

    126 multi Role Combat Aircraft as a cost of Rs 40000 crore.
     
  7. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    no at cost of RS 40,000 crore is relative to interim sale, not to 126 Mutirole combat Aircraft, it's normal to be relative to a sale instead to some plane for a price.
     
  8. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    if i go by your obvious &
    1000 crores for each rafale in 2010 then the whole deal for 126 rafales in 2010 (at rupee dollar exchange rate of 45 in 2010) would come to 28 billio9n dollars in 2010

    also parrikar has last year mentioned that

    su30MKi costs 358 crores / piece

    rafale under MMRCA would have costed twice that so even in 2014 rafale under mmrca is less than 720 crores

    use some logic
     
  9. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    use some logic

    at 1000 crores a rafale - the deal for 126 rafales even today will costs 1,26,000 corees which comes to US$ 220 Billion at 63 to 1 ruppee dollar exchange rate

    which has just been cancelled (MMRCA)

    also go throu 2009 & 2010 posts on the MMRCA contract value estimation in the MMRCA thread in this forum

    those 4000 crores mentioned in that articel in 2010 are for 126 rafales not 40 rafales

    ask the other members here
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    It shouldn't matter. This time Dassault will be in control, so they decide the manpower requirements. And production line will be shared, so if something is impossible to be made in India at reasonable costs, they will make it in France. You are unable to get that a lot of factors have changed since MMRCA. India and France will share production line. And they will most likely pick a private player which can get a more productive workforce.

    And it wasn't Dassault that wanted a price hike in MMRCA, it is HAL. They say that they have to pay more to their labour since their manpower is not as productive as Dassault's. HAL says their employees have to work 2.7 hours just to be as productive as French labour working for one hour. Stop blaming everything on Dassault. It doesn't make sense.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Dude stop making shit up. It is obvious the cost of the 40 Rafales is 40000 Crores. Do you really think Rafales will come at $50M apiece(according to you) when Rafale won the L1 bid at $85M apiece?
     
  12. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I find 40 000 Crore was 8.5 Billion $ so 36000 was 7.65 B and with 25% reduction it gives 5.74 B very close to what we claim for the current price.
     
  13. abhitej

    abhitej Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    France offers India 36 Rafale fighters for IAF at the same rate as its own air force
    Press Trust of India#france#india#rafale fighter jets#indian air force
    They added that the final pricing will depend on the specific requirements that India seeks from France and how the negotiation goes forward.

    The said offer is in keeping with the joint statement issued during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent visit to France where he announced the intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf.

    "The two leaders (Modi, French President Fracois Hollande) agreed to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than what is conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway," the statement had said.

    The "separate process" was the MMRCA tender which had been stuck for years over pricing and other issues.

    French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian had met with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar on Wednesday following which the two sides decided to form special teams that will work in a time-bound manner to conclude negotiations. Defence sources said the teams will work out the finer details of the deal, including the pricing.

    They also questioned the possibility whether the deal may have an offset clause, saying it would be difficult if the pricing for Indian aircraft remains the same as that for the French air force.

    As per industry experts, the price of a Rafale to French air force works out to anywhere between $200-220 million.

    "If we take the lowest value of $200 million, it will work out to around Rs 1,240 crore per aircraft. Even if we increase it to Rs 1,300 crore, it would be a better price than earlier," sources said.

    The price per aircraft not only includes its own cost but also that for maintenance, training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares.

    Qatar has recently signed a deal worth over $7 billion for 24 Rafale jets. This includes MBDA missiles and the cost for the training of 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians. The value of each aircraft thus comes to over $290 million.

    Asked if that price would be acceptable to India, the sources said it would have been "very expensive".

    Modi has said that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.
     
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Dude start using your brains ASAP. MMRCA deal structure is different from direct purchase. It is not the same. The 40 plane deal comes with weapons while the MMRCA doesn't.

    Just buying 500 missiles cost us $1.23B.
    ..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF Mirages to get new MICA missiles in $1.23 bn deal

    So this cost is included in the 40 aircraft deal. That's why it is 40K cr.

    The lesser the volumes, the greater the price. It is common sense.

    Australia orders 58 F-35 Lockheed Martin stealth fighters| Reuters
    Australia ordered 58 F-35s for $11.6B with weapons and 30 years maintenance. That's $200M per plane. And we know for sure that Rafale is much cheaper.

    If the Australians would have bought 126 F-35s, they would have technically paid $25B. But common sense will tell you with greater volumes, the price is also lower, so they would have paid lesser than $200M per plane. So if F-35s alone cost $25B with weapons and 30 years maintenance, then what makes you think 126 Rafales will cost $28B without weapons? Start making sense.

    France offered 40 Rafales with weapons and maintenance at $8.8B. US offered Japan 42 F-35s at $10B.
    USA pegs value of Japanese F-35 deal at $10 billion - 5/2/2012 - Flight Global

    So how the hell is Rafale going to cost more than F-35?

    MMRCA deal should be much lesser in comparison. Although a new GTG deal with selective manufacturing should bring down costs much more than it was in MMRCA.

    You hate the Rafale so much that your common sense has gone down the drain. And you believe that madman Karnad saying Rafales will cost $47B. Heights of ignorance.
     
  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Yeah, INR was 45 to a dollar in 2010.
     
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