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France offers 25% discount to India on purchase of 36 Rafale jets

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tusharm, May 6, 2015.

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  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    @Picdelamirand-oil

    Wasn't there news about French expenditure on Rafale to date, including development?
     
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    That price is including development costs. India will not have to pay for that.
     
  3. abhitej

    abhitej Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    This is from defense ministry source. Still not ready to believe that Rafale is expensive.
     
  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    What defence ministry source? It says industry experts. Since when has that become defence ministry?Read the article properly please. The journo is throwing around random figures. Even Parrikar is on record saying the total MMRCA price is less than 100,000 Cr. That's less than $16B. In one article it claimed Parrikar said 90000 crores for the entire deal. That's $14B or $111M for each jet. Add $7B for weapons and it is still $166M for each jet. (Note that 500 MICA missiles cost $1.23B, so actual cost of weapons is much lesser than what I have assumed above.)

    This is from the French senate.
    Projet de loi de finances pour 2014 : Défense : équipement des forces et excellence technologique des industries de défense
    That's 46B in total program costs for 286 jets.

    Even the prices are available for each jet. Rafale C costs Euro 69M, that's $78M, and that's with 19.9% VAT. Remove the VAT and the price becomes $63M. That's the price the French pay for Rafale-C. And hors coût means 'excluding', so prices are without development costs.

    With development, the unit price is Euro 160M or $180M for each jet. Even industry experts make up their own shit. When it is this obvious, still people become unrealistic.

    So the price of $200M is just someone's imagination. Or do you deny Parrikar's statements that MMRCA is less than 100k Cr? It is available in Headlines Today interview with Karan Thapar and has been posted numerous times. Stick to official sources, the sources I have presented are directly from the French Senate and India's Defence Minster. What about your sources?



    @vstol jockey
    It appears you are right. The discount is 25% on the MMRCA unit price of $85M.
     
  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I haven't seen any recent news on this subject.
     
  6. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    fixing L1 status - was it done without Dasaults willingness to become L1 or without paying to become L1 ?

    this matters

    as we are concerned with price - how dasault achieves lower costs is their problem - they may choose to supply rafales flyaway from france - it is thier problem & their issue

    as far as i am concerned - the deal prices should be lower than the Original (2010) quote offered by dasault due to which it became L1 under MMRCA
     
  7. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    in 2010 the exchange rate (rupe dollar) was 44

    40000 rs /44 = 9.1 Billion dollars

    so you mean to say that in 2010 the costs of 40 rafale was 9.1 Billion dollars

    even 6 months back PIC said that the costs of 126 rafales under MMRCA was 14 biliion dollars
     
  8. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    werent you claiming that MMRCA contract 126 rafales was for around 14 Billion $ till a few days ago ?

    14 billion /126 = 112 million

    112million $ *36 = 4.03 billion $

    @randomradio

    dont get confused with rupee value & dollar values of the deal

    for eg

    the deal for 126 rafales in 2010 at 12 billion dollars would be rs 52800 crores ( at rs/dolla exchange rate of 44)

    the same deal 126 rafales in 2015 at 12 billion dollars would be Rs 76800 crores ( at rs/dollar exchange rate of 64)
     
  9. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    @randomradio
    @Picdelamirand-oil

    Doode

    if both of yuo agree that in 2010 rafale 126 deal costs was estimated at 10 billion in newspapers ?

    and if you agree that rs / dollar exchange rate was 45

    then

    1 billion dollars = 45oo crores
    10 billion dollars = 45000 crores

    so those 40000 crores mentioned in that article are for deal of 126 rafales

    and at that point in time rafale did not costs 40000 crores for 40 rafales

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now we have rafale fan boys spreading lies saying that rafale in 2010 was offered at 1000 crore a piece
    and trying to justify the 200-300million / piece costs
     
  10. tusharm

    tusharm Captain FULL MEMBER

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    For some reason some people have weak maths. or don't want to understand the price of LCA.

    The calculation is good i have done it with R&D cost & per unit cost separate & has taken 64/$ as a exchange rate.

    10 billion is the total cost including R&D spend till now + 200 fighters @ 220 crore.

    Please check before making a post.

    The govt itself says that LCA per unit cost is 220 Crore & since 1 Million $$$ = 6.4 crore then

    -------------220 /6.4 = 34.375 Million $$$$$ (may include R&D cost of 20000 crore or 3.14 billion $$$$ )

    The matter that whether R&D cost is included in this 220 crore is still not known because the article don't clarify on that.

    This also include Maintenence facility/ Infrastructure & Production line (for LCA) .
    Spares are 5% of the cost of plane every year & Rafale / F22 or PAK-FA are no different.

    (AGAIN NO COMPARISON BETWEEN RAFALE & LCA BUT POINT MADE BECAUSE LCA CAN FILL THE SQD. NUMBERS & RAFALE CAN'T DUE TO COST.)

    No other point like tech or capability was taken for building up sqd. numbers .
    IAF can't afford 200 Rafale at this time but they can get 200 LCA to replace the 120 bisons that will retire starting 2017.

     
  11. tusharm

    tusharm Captain FULL MEMBER

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    @Ezco Getting 2 Tejas for 1 rafale is a stupid point if you can elaborate on that it would be good.

    You can calculate for 200 LCA & 200 Rafale & can include 20000 crore extra on LCA as R&D cost.
     
  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    IAF shud get Rafale at a price lower than that of French Airforce as VAT is not to be paid for exports. So IAF Rafale shud be atleast 12% cheaper than that of French AF.
     
  13. positron

    positron Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Now everyone seems to be talking of HAL and Dassault being partners, is it not funny that earlier Dassault had reservations of how HAL produces the planes etc, and then we had the Agreement between them about the Guarantees
    Also was the DM not on record saying.. this is urgent requirement and we shall buy directly from France, HAL will only focus on projects in hand such as Tejas, FGFA and AMCA.. so is the DM confused about what he said before? Or is now Dassault trying to line up HAL so that the GoI pays for the line and ToT... After all if Dassault pays for the line, they are investing their own money, or at least half of it, and giving tech to Reliance, they are not going to earn anything in that except the profit on planes.
     
  14. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Exactly, I find $ 4.05 billion and I justify the difference with our claim on the price of the contract by margin and missile
    France offers 25% discount to India on purchase of 36 Rafale jets | Page 3 | Indian Defence Forum
    Till 2012, I claim that the MMRCA deal will be between $ 15 and 16 Billion, not 14.
     
  15. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Your cliams & your quoting of article iof 2010 saying in 2010, and your understanding of the article that 40 rafales were offered to india at 1000 crores each in 2010 and the same price is being applied now is wrong

    lets first clear that issue

    what was quoted in 2010
     
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