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Future of The Indian Navy: News & Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Gessler, Aug 31, 2014.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Do we need small(er) destroyers of 7-8000t class or do we need large(r) destroyers of +10,000t class? I'd say we need both.

    Smaller ones now (we'll be taking deliveries of current orders until around 2025) and the bigger ones later (around 2030 and past that).

    We need to remember it's not just about how many ships you have, it's about how much firepower you can deploy from each ship. India does not have the capability to build large numbers of ships at lightning speed. Our shipbuilding is slow(er). So making our DDGs smaller does not really translate into that much capability because by the time we build 3 medium DDGs, China will build 6-8 large ones anyway.

    Our future CBGs might be comprised of at least 1 x large Zumwalt-esque DDG, and some 2 x or more medium Kolkata/Vizag-class DDGs.

    Not to mention that these larger DDGs should be and will be capable of operating all by themselves and being able to do a much better job in that role than any existing DDG.

    As as bottomline...I'd say let's leave the decision-making/course-plotting to the Navy. If the IN really said they wanted 13,000-ton DDGs, they had their reasons. Some of which we might not yet even know.

    Sejong The Great-class DDG of ROK Navy (a 11,000-ton modified Burke design)
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    A must watch. Speech by Vice Adm. DM Deshpande from April this year.



    Key points in the speech:
    • When platforms like the Delhi-class were being commissioned, things were very different. It took us at least 6-8 hours of advance knowledge in order to effectively move these platforms from place to place. Sensors and systems gave a very limited picture of the battlefield situation. Automated software-based Platform-Management Systems did not exist, it was all manual controls. Effectiveness in using offensive missile systems was at a nascent stage.
    • Compare this to the situation today - the latest commissioned DDG being the INS Chennai (Kolkata-class). There's a world of difference - in all spheres of operational capability where the ship is expected to function. There are state-of-the-art Platform & Bridge-management systems, Damage-Control systems etc. Today the C&C functions in these ships have the capability to offload a payload from other ships in the vicinity, from the C&C center on this ship.
    • The IN has a clear game plan & perspective regarding what we need to do. A Navy is not built in a day, it takes a century - 50 years of which is the actual on-task work and rest is planning.
    • IN has a Maritime Perspective Plan and a Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan (LTIPP; 2012-2027) which overlooks the kind of platforms we need to procure over that period.
    • We're looking at a Navy of 150-180 major ships and up to 400 aircraft. But it's not the numbers that matter - it's the punch that these platforms have in terms of technology and firepower.
    • The use of technology has maximized. When you look at the platform it consists of just about everything - and we are willing to invite new technologies, and going through the processes of learning, before we standardize on that technology for future use.

    • IN's three areas of operation: Surface, Air & Underwater. IN is developing the indigenous ship-development capabilities using three points: Move, Float & Fight.
    • In the Float department, we have made significant progress. Warship-building steels are being produced in-country, the local Shipbuilding agencies are graduating to Modular and Integrated forms of building.
    • In the Move department, we are not where I'd like to be. We are a couple steps short in developing Propulsion solutions in-country. But we have progressed in the dept. of integrating propulsion (engines) with the other ship systems (gearboxes, driveshafts, IPMS etc.)
    • The Fight department is a concern. We've made fair progress with systems like BrahMos and Varunastra. But not much otherwise - this is where IN requires the participation of local industry (state-run and/or private) to take this dept. forward.
    Regarding the future acquisitions coming up for the IN, on the Surface dept.:-

    • Next Generation Destroyers (Project-18??)
    • Next Generation Corvettes (NGC)
    • Missile Vessels (NGMV)
    • Fleet Support Ships
    • IAC-2...which would probably be the biggest project of Navy provided we get the clearances
    The Air Dept. :-

    Does not talk about any specific project but states that significant progress has been made indigenously regarding development of mechanical systems & avionics, including Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ship datalinks.

    The Underwater dept.:-

    • We are in the midst of inducting the Scorpene submarines, to be commissioned very shortly.
    • We have programs for building more conventional submarines & a very ambitious plan for our strategic (nuclear) submarines
    • Plans for Special Operating Vessels which should fall into place soon (is he talking about SDVs or something else?)
    • DSRV project should fructify by May 2018
    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @PARIKRAMA @vstol jockey @Sancho @Hellfire @Agent_47 @Grevion @GuardianRED @MilSpec @Levina @nair @ni8mare @ranadd @everyone else
     
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  3. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    See what HSL is doing. VC 11184.
     
  4. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Video of a Q&A Session from that same FICCI Seminar:-



    Some stuff related to acquisitions:

    Q. What is the progress of programs like IAC-2, LPD, Project-75I?
    A. We've been stuck with the LPD program for a good 5-6 years, but progress has been made at the highest level regarding the LPD acquisition. The Ministry and everyone agrees we need these ships. I'm confident that a contract for the LPDs will be signed by the end of this year. Regarding the IAC-2, this is a big ticket item. It will have to come at the expense of things. Right now there are discussions & debates within the IN regarding what type of carrier we want - everything from tonnage, type of propulsion etc. is being debated. Once the IN is absolutely clear about what we want, we will take the matter up to the Ministry. The P75I has been linked to the Strategic Partnership Model (SPM), but some things have changed and we are working on that. IN needs these submarines badly, our force levels are dropping - if the SPM model doesn't fall into place, we'll have to look for alternatives elsewhere.

    Q. What about Minesweepers? Also, what are these "alternatives" to P75I if the SP model doesn't materialize?
    A. Goa Shipyard has gotten into a deal with a Korean collaborator (Kangnam) for the minesweepers. There have been all kinds of delays & issues regarding the terms of contract but we are past that now. Again I'm confident that by Q4 2017 I should be in a position to sign this deal. Regarding P75I alternatives - we are discussing all kinds of possibilities, whether we'd like a follow-on to the Scorpene order, whether we'd get into a different Govt-to-Govt deal for additional submarines we haven't decided yet. IN will prefer the SPM to work out - if it doesn't, then all these options are on the table. We're keeping our fingers crossed that SPM will work.

    Q. If SPM doesn't come through, how big of an issue will it be for the IN? (asked by Ajai Shukla)
    A. India is currently looking at SPM for two major deals: Submarines and Aircraft. If SPM doesn't work we'll need a Plan B but the discussions regarding this (other than what he's already answered above) are very internal to the Navy.

    Q. Other than conventional submarines, Navy has a sanctioned plan for 6 SSNs. Where are we on that?
    A. I won't be able to answer on what's the program for this strategic project, but you're all aware that there is a strategic project on. The entire gamut of nuclear submarines (not just SSBNs) come under the strategic project and is something I wouldn't want to talk about.

    Q. Regarding CNS's displeasure about LCA-Navy program and possible alternatives etc.
    A. The LCA-Navy program itself has been a success story so far - unfortunately, the plane doesn't suit aircraft carrier operations. Navy has looked at the development of an LCA-2 or "LCA**" which will be more suitable for carrier operations. But till the time LCA Navy doesn't materialize, we'll have to look for alternatives. We're looking at induction of 57 aircraft and we'll have to work through the RFI processes for that, but it's at a very nascent stage at this point.

    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @PARIKRAMA @vstol jockey @Sancho @Hellfire @Agent_47 @Grevion @GuardianRED @MilSpec @Levina @nair @ni8mare @ranadd @everyone else

    He's talking about Underwater SOVs. The MRIS project is different (surface ship) and was not discussed in this seminar.
     
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  5. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    If 400 comes true, then F sola or Jhol Funder kum pad jayenge.
     
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  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    I have posted last time, nothing new here. check last year's videos from SP Guide channel





     
  7. ranadd

    ranadd 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What I read.

    1. IAC 2 is still not yet baselined. CSL assets developed IAC1 will be lost. All the sub contractors and temp employees will move on. For IAC 2, it will be back to square one.

    India and Indians will keep sucking at manufacturing.

    Things will be trimmed a lot. Gotta pay the farmers loans people!!!.

    Also point 3 below.

    2. IN "suddenly" realized that they cannot fight tonnage to tonnage. So they are going to fight anti-<whatever the enemy has>. So next few years, it's going to be subs.

    Very important though.

    3. They haven't yet decided the next aviation unit. That means IAC2 is still way behind than one could hope for.

    4. Boomers on the way.

    So glad I left this industry as a whole. Last few months, no heartburns when I read news.

    Masterstrokes by Indian babus. Yes, they are the ones that plan.
     
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  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    They have the Ticonderoga cruisers and Flight III Arleigh Burkes. The Zumwalt class also cross 14000T.

    The Koreans have Sejong the Great.

    The Russians have Slava and Kirov classes.

    The Chinese are now getting the Type 055.

    The point of going heavier also equates to getting taller. Taller = more vision from radars and other sensors. Getting big helps you protect your fleet better.
     
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  9. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    Ticonderoga,Arleigh Burke - ~9,600ton
    Zumwalt - unnecessary,over budget
    Sejong the Great - enlarged Arleigh Burke (IMO we should be going for bigger P15B)
    Russians - Current outdated, replacement - nofunds
    Type 55 - ~11,000 ton Moderate compared to their ambitions

    Russians,chinese and USN all have global ambitions. Unlike us who is happy with regional power to secure its intrests and don't tell me it will change because it will not. We are not a dictator or conquerors we will not fight another nations war in a far away land with ulterior motives. Its not who we are, our civilization never did.
    Why not semi submersible then? :bad:Come on, It will be conventional.

    @Abingdonboy @Gessler @PARIKRAMA
     
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  10. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    For Fun

     
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  11. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    A possible solution might be to order a 2nd ship of the Vikrant class.

    Vishaal is a L-O-N-G way off. CSL needs to keep building something until then. When Vishaal enters service (around ~2040) it will be in time to replace the Vikramaditya.

    A 2nd IAC-1 class ship would make a lot of sense IMO. We already built one so the second will be cheaper & quicker, owing to less trial & error.

    I'd say getting subs is any day more important than carriers. Especially the SSNs.
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The AB class is already over 10000T. Type 055 is 13000T, not 11000.

    Then there's the Russian Lider class which is 18000T.

    The size of destroyers are going up, not down.

    We do as well. We ultimately plan to have 6 carriers in the mid term. Who knows how many more in the long term.

    As our economic power increases, so will our military power. In fact, our military power will increase alongside our economic power.

    Semi submersible are not big enough.

    The point of this class is to carry missiles to increase the fleet's firepower.
     
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  13. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    US will be building nearly 100 Burkes. China will build at least a dozen 055s. Not to mention there will most certainly be a 055A after this....or the several dozens of 052C and 052D (they also unveiled new 052E concept, another dozen).

    What India can't do in numbers, we need to make up for in capability. As I said, IN has a plan for these ships.

    Ok let's not get into that now. No one knows where we'll be in 50 years, but one thing's for sure: we'd be a Top 3 economy, the most populated country with probably the 3rd highest defense budget.

    What political decisions we take at that time, no one can predict today.
     
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  14. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Just out of curiosity

    What is the loss that CSL will develop in the case that no new order for aircraft carrier is given?? . Ie. in terms of current manufacturing technics and equipment - there is alot of commonality between the IAC1 and any other large surface combatant - correct?
     
  15. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Atago-class, JMSDF. Basically a tall(er) version of Burke. Over 10,000T at full load.

    [​IMG]
     
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