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General News, Questions And Discussions - Indian Airforce

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Ankit Kumar 001, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I dont think you read the research article -
    a) Jags under current upgrade to DARIN III, with AESA etc , hardly your 3rd gen classification.
    b) Article talkes of more upgrades to Jags that means, by 2032 it possible be upgrade over & above Darin 3, possible GaN AESA etc too.
    c) It fixes 100 jags functional available by 2032, post losses/cannibalisation etc.

    In summary, jags on darin 3 upgrade & possible more upgade beyond by 2032 - anyway not resembling Gen 3 by any stretch of mind. Read the PDF file its not too long.
     
  2. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Thats exactly what they did that concluded the 42 sqd number.

    Lol, its just a think tank paper ie,opinion. That too with too many obvious mistakes. 6 sqd LCA but 8 sqd FGFA by 2030 ! don't get me started on transport aircrafts and trainers.

    Only three sqd of jaguars are getting upgraded. Do yourself some reading before lecturing us with your weird formatting.
     
  3. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Again shows you didnt read properly - may be selective amnesia, let me help you.

    It said out of 810 fighter planes (45 sq) - from total requirement of 53-63 sq.
    It accounted for LCA 108 numbers (confirmed orders) & "Definitive variants with GE414+/Kaveri engines. Possibly undergoing mid-life upgrade. Possibly higher numbers may be there" (This logically be based on how HAL/ADA shapeup MK2 & Mk2s variant with GE414+/Kaveri, not to mention possible followup order.)

    And some fools think - upgrade be limited to 3sqd, from now to kingdom come, when IAF expects to use them till 2038.
    They expect IAF to sit idle on rest of Jag from 2017-2032 = 15 years.
    Its called budget constraint - its done in lots/piecemeal & based on IAF priority list.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I wasn't refering to the article, just showed that we still can have 3rd gen fighters by the time, simply because we kept producing them far too long.
    And as @Agent_47 correctly pointed out, only a fraction of the Jags get radar upgrades and not even they seem to get BVR missile capabilities, which means they remain single role fighters and therfor 3rd gen.

    All they do, is give IAF some more squads on paper, with very limited operational use and that's exactly why the whole 42 squadron issue is based on a false ground. IAF came up with that figure when they had mainly single role fighters, for dedicated missions. Today with MRCA, you can do more with a single squadron. When you then add the naval fighters, that today cover the costal areas either from our carriers, or if allowed the IN land bases, you need even less IAF squads.
    So what IAF needs, is not a paper figure, but a capable base;of real 4th gen MRCAs, that are stationed at least towards our eastern and western borders.
     
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  5. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Well we are discussing the PDF file, where @Agent_47 thought IAF be using 3rd gen fighter non multirole planes still in 2032.
    So your comment is out of context - but you post clarifies same - its ok
     
  6. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    You mean to say the Chinese can operate 2000+ highly advanced multirole jets while we should be happy with only 800? How does that work?

    We have the ability to produce 2 squadrons each of Rafales, Gripens and LCAs every year, and this number is just the minimum. Everything has to do with money. All other countries are minimizing numbers because they can't afford it, as I said, money. Developing countries everywhere are expanding their air force. Brazil, Indonesia, Vietnam, Russia etc.

    If the Chinese bring 1000+ jets to the theater, we need 600 jets to counter it considering we do double their sorties. Considering these numbers, what makes you think we can do it with just 800 jets in total? As the report says, we definitely need 20 squadrons in the North and the West to either deter or fight China. That's just 350 jets versus 500+ enemy jets in the region.

    In the current setup, we will have to deter the Chinese while we concentrate on decimating the PAF in a few days. And then move most of the jets to the east after that. In those few days the Chinese will have a huge advantage.

    The Chinese are going to start producing 50+ J-20s every year from 2018. And who knows how many J-10C and J-11D will be produced apart from that. We will have to match at least half their production.
     
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    All these countries have very small territories and a huge amount of aircraft for those small territories.

    During the Cold War, they all had 800+ jets.
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    We can operate 2 Jaguar squadrons until 2050.
     
  9. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The paper has overestimate Indian numbers and underestimated Chinese numbers. :D
     
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  10. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Please understand what the author is saying before commenting. This is not rocket science.

    Currently planned by IAF- 42-45 sqd
    Author's recommended requirement - Up to 63 sqd

    Really, 5 sqd of LCA till 2032 but 8 sqd FGFA ? How is FGFA confirmed? that too such big number?

    Only 68 Jags are getting upgraded.

    I never said that bozo you some how imagined that i did without reading fully.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It's not the author's recommendation, it's a report meant to support the IAF's recommendation. A post Kargil recommendation happened under the Arun Singh Task Force.

    The Task Force recommended 42-45 squadrons as the minimum required while 55 was necessary for complete domination. They wanted these numbers to become available by 2020.

    We need four different jets if we are to reach 42 squadrons by 2032.

    The report was authored back in 2013 when FGFA was expected to be available before 2020.

    He's taken stuff that was true back then, even if things have changed now.

    LCA has only 6 squadrons because that's the number IAF ordered and the IAF had said that they won't be ordering more than 6 squadrons at the time. In 2013, LCA Mk2 was supposed to have become available only in 2023. So we were supposed to receive a squadron or two of FGFA before we received the first LCA Mk2.

    Since then Mk1A has made more numbers possible because it will be ready next year instead of 2023, while the FGFA is delayed to as far as 2025.

    As for the Chinese, the 300 J-20s by 2032 is obviously underestimated since LRIP deliveries have already begun this year. The author possibly assumed the J-20 will be ready well after 2020.

    So you are criticizing the article simply because the open source content the author has used has become outdated. The conditions have changed so much that we are behind while the Chinese are ahead as compared to the report. So that's overall a bad thing.
     
  12. BON PLAN

    BON PLAN Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Indeed, but when a old fighter made for exemple a CAS only mission, and probably need a cover from dedicated superiority air fighter, a new one can also defend itself and brinb back some battle assesments and reco.
    A old fighter "see" some dozen kilometers around it, a newer one see 150 to 200km around.

    It sure quantity remain a quality, but we can't compare what a Mirage 3 and a Mirage 2000-5 can do, see and assess during a same flight.
     
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  13. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    We are not talking current IAF planned strength, but what India requirement be in 2032, stop trying to confuse matter.
    2032 numbers be based on enemy strength/numbers & Indian Economy ability.

    FGFA - Your assertions 8sqd FGFA is confirmed, is wrong assumption, instead it reflects planned acquisitions strength
    http://indiandefence.com/threads/su...-generation-aircraft.851/page-312#post-583532
    If deals are being signed, it logical also have some numbers attached with it. (wont be confirmed orders, but agreed upon/planned if project proceeds as plan)

    LCA - Wrong again on 5 sqd, reposting
    Definitive variants with Ge414+/Kaveri engines means MK2, thats beyond 108 numbers
    Possible higher numbers may be there - again confirms more number may climb above 108
    So thats beyond 5 sqd
    What have you been smoking, China is expected to anytime now rollout high quantities of J20 per year, fifth gen planes & India should not even have 8 sqn of 5th gen by 2032.
    How contradictory, earlier were advocating India should go for high end aircrafts like french rafale example, which can fulfill all roles. When India looks to add 5th gen high capability crafts, you think thats too much.
    Notice we are not talking present but 2032 - more 5th gen the better.
    Nobody denying that - repeating as you not understanding basic concept, money spent is based on IAF budget & priority list. If jags are to be used till close to 2040, its obvious others Jags will be upgraded too at a later date, provided IAF budget/priority list allows same. To assume that since only few are being done now, hence never in future others will be upgraded is flawed logic to say the least. Same logic why India didnt order all 272 su30mki in single lot, why other planes are acquired in tranche, same hold true with upgrades, first lot dont mean last lot.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
  14. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The same advantage is conferred to the enemy as well. Even the enemy will operate a fighter that can see 150 to 200Km around. So it ultimately comes down to numbers.
     
  15. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Numbers are planned according threat perception and minimum deterrence.

    :bad: Isn't that same thing i'm saying. Why are you keep jumping in and replying without understanding what the other is saying?

    18 x 6 = 108

    My point is the numbers are all wrong. Taking in unconfirmed FGFA numbers while not LCA.


    Still hanging on the original point which i explained before.


    Why are you quoting thing out of context. As i explained before it was an example how airforces all around the world evolved overtime.

    No its not. Airframes are too old. It can never go beyond ten more years.

    I'm done replying to half boiled arguments.
     

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