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General News, Questions And Discussions : Indian Navy

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Ankit Kumar 001, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    1. Coastal Defence does not only mean having control over the surface and in air, but under the surface too. And it's a must, which aircrafts and surface vessels cannot compensate for.

    2. The CBGs in case of India, itself won't be going very far away. They will always remain near our coasts. Even if they go a bit farther, that would not be beyond ~500 kilometers , which SSKs can very very easily do.

    3. Offensive missions doesn't mean blowing up enemy vessels.In peacetime its about following foreign vessels near our EEZ, trailing warships, doing intelligence gathering missions.

    4. If the new vessels would have been coming so easily , why would we be discussing 2nd hand options in the first place ?
     
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  2. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    First of all , the cost [Buying cost or the cost incurred in its construction ] for SSKs like Type 209s and Kilos is well below 250 million USD. For Type 214, Scorpene , around 450-500 million USD at most.

    Rest of the cost is lifetime costs, and one time investments in infrastructure and training. So we are very well poised to acquire more submarines[SSK].

    See, even today in the water, upto atleast where the continental shelf ends, its the SSKs who have a big advantage over SSNs. And we need a lot of submarines for various tasks of ours, and we cannot have ~45 SSNs , we need to have ~30 SSKs, and ~12 SSNs.
     
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  3. A_poster

    A_poster Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Scorpene are costing us around $500 million per boat when we signed the contract in 2009, and would cost us $750 million per boat today. By the time P75I tender is complete, a SSK of Scorpene class would cost north of $1 billion. Some SSKs like Soryu already cost more than a Billion. Thus a force of net 24 submarines would cost us more than $24 billion as acquisition cost, and more as maintenance cost.

    And my point was that since SSKs are not of much use beyond continental shelf, against a competent navy; why waste money on building a gargantuan defensive fleet of SSKs when chances of a maritime invasion of India are nil? The money we have would be better utilized on surface navy ,like getting ASW choppers for our destroyers which are best at hunting enemy subs, and for building SSNs eventually.

    A 15 SSK + 15 SSN Navy would be better for threat matrix of India, than 30 SSK + 12 SSNs. If we are expecting an invasion by USN, then it would make sense to invest heavily in SSKs as they are only weapons which have chance of hurting USN. But in this case Scorpene, Type 214/216, and Soryu become useless as their secrets would be passed to USN, like secret of Mirage fighters were passed to UK during Falklands war.


    Aren't ASW choppers best at hunting SSKs in conjugation with ASW ships.

    But that is a limitation still. It would constrict area in which our CBG could operate thus giving an idea to enemy about its location.

    Intelligence gathering agreed; but won't range limitation again come to play in following over long distances.

    I do not think second hand option is feasible. Over lifetime, a second hand sub would cost nearly same as a brand new one, unless we forego upgrades and use that sub on a true use and throw basis.
     
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  4. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    When we bought the Scorpenes, it would have been 350-400 million USD,and now its ~450 million USD. Rest costs were investments incurred upon MDL and the components supply chain and training.

    You see , just like dividing ~9 billion USD for 36 Rafales is wrong, just is the case here.

    And no SSK today costs more than 650 million USD , except the Soryu , that too not because its too much advanced, but because of other things.

    And no, it's a wrong assumption especially in our case to consider SSK not useful beyond continental shelf. Even the small Type 209 can go upto 2500km with full combat load and only a few surfacing , the Kilos have even greater range. Chinese Kilos regularly travel from their Eastern Fleet HQ all the to off coast Somalia without any port visit , depending on only few surfacing.

    Another issue is the time a SSK can spend at sea. Even with unlimited range due to nuke reactors , if time taken for 1 cycle [A short deployment for testing, then a small docking periods for loading or any small rectification to be made, then a long deployment , then a medium refit to keep up the operational readiness , two-thirds more deployments , then 1 full overhaul ] is taken , then if we have 12 SSNs (new ones) , then after a period of 4 years , for that year on average we will have only 50% of the fleet at sea, compared to a 12 SSK (new) fleet, of which we can easily have 75% fleet at sea through out their first half of the life.

    You see SSNs , do have more capability , but also need much more costs and man hour to maintain .

    This that if we need ~20 SSKs for effectively doing a task over 20 years, we will need ~24 SSNs to do the same task.

    Further in context of India , where most of the operations won't go beyond BoB and Eastern Arab Sea, SSKs with Land Attack Cruise Missile capability are of huge benefit.

    Coming to ASW corvettes plus ASW helis as a better option than SSKs,try to see the total area of India s water [excluding EEZ , considering only territorial waters ] , and then see the planned number of ASW assets we may get. They are no where near to cover the even bare minimum needs.
    Even if we double the planned numbers, only then the bare minimum needs are taken care off, that too with a chance of huge risk taken.
     
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  5. Soumya

    Soumya Major STAR MEMBER

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  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Wrong, we spend close to $750 million per scorpion. Antony give additional amount quoting 'teething problems'.

    Doesn't matter if it's spend on MDL, we gave it to french.
     
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  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    My daughter SMSed me when this ship was entering Chennai harbour and sent me pix. She was on tour of CG ships from INA, Ezhimala as part of her training.
     
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  8. Soumya

    Soumya Major STAR MEMBER

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    I always want to visit a ship of this caliber
     
  9. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    I do not deny the total cost spent / number of submarines order.

    All I said was that the amount went into "construction of submarine " excluding the costs it took to build the things needed to build them, should be the basis when we try to compare that how costly SSKs are and how do they compare to SSNs.
     
  10. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Yes, but do we have cost breakdown information to confirm ? No. For all that i know, DCNS made a killing in that deal.
     
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    If I remember correctly, IN even rejected the upgrade of our U209 with AIP, since they didn't trust that a sub that has been cut in half could be welded back properly, so why would they go for exactly such types. I have some doubts about this 2nd hand hunt. But then again, this government doesn't seem to have a clue what their defence procurement policy is.
     
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  12. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Out of four U209s we are only upgrading two. Remaining will be decommetioned on its original service life. There is no second hand purchase.
     
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  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Yes and since the scorpenes are incoming now, that's not an issue, but a follow order is needed to replace the Kilo subs at some point and we need more capability too. Do you know if we bought AIP for the Scorpenes now?
     
  14. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    At least 4-5 kilos will serve past 2027. 2 getting upgraded in HSL and 2 more in Russia. 2-3 follow on scorpions are certain.

    Last heard IN dropped the AIP integration plans on scorpions.

    http://www.defensenews.com/articles/indian-navy-not-to-mount-homegrown-aip-on-scorpene-subs
     
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  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I don't know what's more disappointment, that DRDO fucked it up once again, or that the navy or MoD put their entire trust in DRDO, instead of buying at least the first few Scorpenes with AIP.
     

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