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HAL LUH / Ka-226: News and Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Gessler, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    As long as "Private" sector licenses it from HAL, Just as it would have from Finmeccanica or Eurocoptor.
     
  2. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    The difference is that in the chopper segment, they actually have way more experience than the jets. And all the constituents of the chopper are already available, including mission critical systems. Not to mention those systems have been tested and operational for the past 4 years.
     
  3. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Russia approves joint venture with India for helicopter production - report
    5 April 2017 ANUSHKA SETHI
    A Russian joint venture with HAL will make 200 Kamov-226T helicopters.
    [​IMG]
    The Russian government has given a formal approval for a joint venture between Russian Helicopters and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to manufacture 200 Kamov-226T helicopters, The Tribune reported on April 5, citing top sources in the Indian Ministry of Defence.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has cleared the joint venture for the production of the Kamov helicopters, the paper added.

    A $1 billion deal to manufacture the helicopters in India was finalised at the Indo-Russian Summit in Goa in 2016.

    https://in.rbth.com/defence/2017/04...india-for-helicopter-production-report_735531
     
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  4. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    It seems their formula is 50% indegenous + 50 % imports ..
    Irrespective of how successful the homegrown project is..

    LUH is successful yet we buy kamov MII
     
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  5. Anish

    Anish BANNED BANNED

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    Govt needs to replace aging Cheetals/Chetaks they are all a decade beyond expiry.

    HAL has poor track record of delivering anything be it HTT 40 or Tejas
     
  6. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    New facility for chopper can build 60 per year..

    It's the same HAL that ll make Kamov too..

    It's going to be 30 LUH + 30 Kamov instead of 60 LUH . Figuratively .

    They also plan to build ACH there too..
     
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  7. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    GoI has screwed HAL, HAL invested their own capital to create the Temkur greenfield LUH production facility with a production capacity of 60 LUH/year under phase 2 and then the GoI forced them to accept Kamov in a JV and to produce the Ka-226.

    Orginally the RSH was meant to go to a private sector player who would set up their own assembly line in India to produce RSH but the Russians have come in and are investing next to nothing and utilising HAL's facilities and therby effecting the production of the HAL LUH.

    Ideally the Ka-226 would never have been ordered but if the GoI insisted then at the very least the Russians should have tied up with a private player to produce them in a dedicated facility and thereby create a skilled workforce and infrastructre away from HAL but the deal the GoI has cooked up is the worst of both worlds (a helo the IAF doesn't want, that will be produced by HAL, that will negatively effect the production of the HAL LUH).

    The Russians must be laughing their a$$es off, they effectively get a state of the art production facilty with a skilled workforce for free, the only costs they will incur are logistics and then on top of that they are quoting a unit price 2x that of the HAL LUH for the Ka-226!

    @Guynextdoor @Sancho @Ankit Kumar 001 @Gessler @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Sathya @Agent_47 @Bregs
     
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  8. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    No dude, I don't think this is a fair assement. LUH has a long way to go before becoming induction ready. The Kamovs are already in service. Remember it took 20+ years for ALH to be declared air-wroth and reach 250 units.
     
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  9. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    KA226T MII should be cancelled. Instead 200 units should be directly imported.
     
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  10. GSLV Mk III

    GSLV Mk III Captain FULL MEMBER

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    And Dhruv ? :lol:
     
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  11. Pundrick

    Pundrick Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    LUH is still not proven platform, although it is small version of Dhruv, it will take some time to mature. But the need to replace the light helicopter is urgent and the best and the cheapest available option was most probably Ka-226.
    As far as the work force is concerned, HAL will act as assembly point and the most of the work will be outsourced to other companies.
     
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  12. Bregs

    Bregs Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This idea of getting kamov heli is a bad movie its been 2 yrs already and this deal has hardly moved because many many of its components are made in western countries and with sanctions on russia now in full force. India will have to make separate component wise deal with various cos of west thus delaying it further and making it a very tedious, failed and lingering deal
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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  13. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    The problem is , with HAL and MII, the first units [after the initial 40] will come after 2019. [When LUH is aimed to gain FOC]

    I would say sign for Ka226T without MII ,the delivery would be complete in 4-5 years.
     
  14. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

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    I agree, a small, limited off-shelf purchase to urgently reinforce our light helicopter fleet, and full focus on domestic mass production of LUH's.
     
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  15. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    True true but that was a long time ago, HAL has come a long way since then and has learned many lessons along the way. The ALH was the ground breaker for HAL, since then they have performed very well and gradually increased their performance (continual upgrades of the ALH and expansion of product portfolio), the LUH being a simplified offshoot of the ALH will cut out a lot of time and the lessons learnt from the ALH and LCH projects will make the job relatively simple, they are already targetting IOC for 2018 and FOC for 2019, there is a 2nd prototype flying now and a 3rd will join it by the end of the year. There's little reason to doubt HAL will deliver the goods here.


    Not quite, the Ka-226 was the more expensive (L2) option under the RSH tender, the FENNEC had been declared cheaper (L1).

    The Ka-226/RSH deal made sense 2 years ago IF the deal had been finalised swiftly and deliveries commenced on a fast track basis but as it stands the Russians have not been able to complete the terms (for the reason you have pointed out) which means, the best case scenerior is the first Ka-226s come into service around the same time as the HAL LUH does. Considering the Ka-226 will cost more upfront AND in life cycle costs than the HAL LUH and the latter will have maximum commonality with the ALH and LCH this is an almost unjustifiable deal at this point.

    Remember, the orginal RSH deal kicked off almost 10 years ago now and had it progressed the full 197 unit order would be in service today but instead time has progressed and the RSH deal has stood still and with the HAL LUH racing to IOC/FOC it makes little sense to continue with this wasteful duplication.

    Sure, the requirement for RSH/LUH between the IA/IAF and even other forces in India is vast (600 units just for the IA/IAF) but HAL has big plans for their LUH and the Temkur plant has installed capacity of 60 LUH/year that could take care of pretty much all possible requirements.

    @Ankit Kumar 001 proposal is by far the most sensible- a fully off the shelf deal for Ka-226s (perhaps 40-60 units only ) with inductions commencing ASAP to cover the first few years of teething issues with the HAL LUH and its production. Perhaps 40-60 units only.

    The Ka-226/RSH deal has been poorly planned and pathetically executed, it really is time to pull the chord on it and invest most of the allocated budget into the HAL LUH program, the returns will be considerable.
     
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