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Hindu Rashtra Explained

Discussion in 'National Politics' started by Sid, Apr 18, 2011.

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  1. A haseeb A

    A haseeb A Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Thumbs up!...

    Its good to know that some Indians view history differently...
     
  2. Rudrakx

    Rudrakx Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    :lol: We(Hindus) survived for over 5000 years, with cruel Muslim rule for nearly 600 year couldn't vanished Hinduism. Inshahh alla, we will survive more 5000 year. You are talking about Christianity in India, last I check, well every time I chalked they are converting tribal people in to Christians for money.Original christan dominated countries are loosing their base, and you are talking about India. lol.
    About Islam, everyone know how their population is rising. Use woman as baby producing machine and produce 4 children. Most Muslim families in India has originally forcefully converted.

    Why wouldn't you love it, it does sound like coming out of Pakistani mouth.
     
  3. illuminati

    illuminati Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Aren't you the same, seeking to disintegrate India for a Hindu state?

    I can politely inform you that, I can, with 100% conviction, tell you that you are in no position to tell me or teach/quote anything about vedic or brahminic literature. So, if this is a stumbling block, let's leave it at that.

    If you're in some form of doubt, look up dharmshastr. I doubt you'd even know of the sheer variations present literature, but I'll leave this at that - unless you demonstrate some competency on issues of philosophy.

    Because India is a secular state, it needs diversity - India is as much for the Buddhists, the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Jains and, the Christians.

    India is for all - and the time of religion is gone. I would have praised your sense of pride for your background but your radical demand and insight. Write a book about India and it's Hindu past if you must use that energy somehow - don't drag 1.2 billion people in all of this because you believe in it very strongly. Pakistanis have left, it's time this chapter closes.

    Let the others jump down their building, why should India compromise on the 'rights' of what should be because everyone's doing the 'wrong'? China/Burma are hardly model states, mind you.

    Only losers look at others to define their own destiny. But should they do this Hindu thing - every anti-Indian element in the world will be laughing at it. Don't make India the laughing stock, the least you can do.

    Not really, this is exactly what I mean - your knowledge of Hinduism itself is, in all modesty, is less than satisfactory, with all due respect.
     
  4. illuminati

    illuminati Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    You're right, they simply justified their pillaging at the pretext of Islam... in the end, Islam is simply a doctrine, it's human beings that use it for whatever nefarious purpose they deem fit.

    What harm does a book do? It's human beings that burn it... likewise, one can't forget their utter destruction of Buddhism completely. Nalanda destruction is such an example of a wrong... it might have grown into an Oxford by today along with Takshilla.
     
  5. illuminati

    illuminati Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Aryabhatt was not, I'll repeat again, a multi-cultural icon. You still do not get it, Gandhiji *invented* a political model that probably revolutionized the *world*... people today go on strikes, any form of strike today, is credited to his movement in India... any strike around the world, non-violent, is credited to him. He changed America, South Africa and even Europe.

    You realise the difference? Aryabhatt may be compared to Pythagoras... how many lives have both of them changed in a mass political movement?

    I urge you and the other gentleman to really read. Most of Siddharth's first disciples were Brahmin converts, please read up.

    Not quite they are different universities altogether - they are different, termed astik and nastik schools. It's like saying Oxford and Cambridge are one and the same.

    This Hindutva term is maligned. I have read stuff by Goel et al (his collection of Gandhiji's letters to Christian evangelists)... the question is, have you?

    The trouble is, you guys are talking about Hinduism this and Hinduism that - but can't demonstrate much, do you even know what your demands are? Do you know the difference between, say, Vedic Hinduism and Puranic Hinduism? Do you know the difference between the Hinduism of, say, Shankararcharya? Chaitanya? Swaminarayan? RadhaKrishna?

    Do you know the school of Samkya? Do you know Vedanta? Do you know the difference between the Bhakti movement and the orthodoxy? How much do you know? If your demands need to affect 1.2 billion people, the knowledge level you need to demonstrate is much more than what both you gentlemen have done so far.

    As I said, Oxford and Cambridge are not the same, Harvard and Yale aren't the same. MIT and Harvard do allow each other's students to access each other's labs but they are still students of their respective colleges. You still haven't quite the grasp of the things you think you're representing.

    You're right, Aryan Invasion is bollocks - Aryan Migration, on the other hand, isn't. Your understanding of the developments within Indology, is, with all due respect, rather antiquated.

    As I said, if you feel so strongly about a certain strain of India's rich philosophical history (at par with classical Greece in every respect, Indians should be proud) - write a book. Don't try and affect the lives of a billion people because of your own personal prejudices.

    Religion and it's era are gone, this is the age of science - only pure knowledge should prevail, nothing less.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2011
  6. illuminati

    illuminati Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes Hinduism will endure and evolve further - anything which evolves survives longest. But for that to happen, you really need to study it scholastically, write theses on it and be critical for further reforms. A Hindu India will do nothing for your favoured school of thought - however, a 1000 scholars writing about it well will help if survive for a further 5,000 years more.

    Like cells, human ideas divide - let it divide, it's life... understand it to help sustain it. Don't impede others.
     
  7. rcscwc

    rcscwc Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Hinduism survived in the face of odds which saw obliteration of others. All without those 1,000 scholars you might have in mind. We know how to survive, thank you.
     
  8. Bang Galore

    Bang Galore Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Spot on. just wish more people understood that.
     
  9. rcscwc

    rcscwc Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Perhaps math and astronomy too are not multi cultural. Haha. Who burny Brunos? Haha.


    If you recognise contributions of Aryabhatta, your multi cilculturism is not going to suffer. Or will it? Secoind, Arybhatt and Gandhi are different people, not to be compared with each other.

    Dunno about Pythagorus, but Arya Bhatt was a mathematician, not a political thinker or a military leader.




    Means Brahmins were open minded ones.



    Astik>>>acknowledging the Vedas.

    Nastik>>> Not acknowledging the Vedas.

    Simple.




    Maligned, but not by Goel. Quite a formidable philosopher whom xians love to avoid.
     
  10. illuminati

    illuminati Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Nope, from the evidence of what I have seen you speak and write - no you don't. You are like some right winger Pakistani to be honest, utterly blind, rigid and unwilling to learn about the real world.

    1,000 influential scholars can do more than an Army of 100,000 fit men over a long period of time in history. For anyone who:

    1. Doesn't want to learn from non-Hindus, despite potential merit
    2. Doesn't know what he wants to support
    3. Cannot know what he wants to know
    4. Knows he is always right

    It's best such people don't get what they want. At least the likes of Sitaram Goel were debaters, your kind, with all due respect, expect the other side to do your work explaining for you. All of this argument and you have hardly provided an author, concept or validity in your reasoning. You expect to strut around on that high horse with this?

    If I had the authority that the brahmins in Varanasi had to chuck you out of the varna system or 'upgrade' you, I'd probably exercise that right now, it isn't a surprise what the decision would be.
     
  11. Bang Galore

    Bang Galore Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Depends on the definition of Hinduism. What exists today is vastly different from Hinduism of the past & many of those who wrote the laws & codes would not be in a position to recognise, let alone approve of Hinduism as existing today. That is the nub of the argument. Hinduism of the past would simply not be acceptable to most hindus, let alone followers of other religions. Therefore a "Hindu rashtra" would essentially have little to do with Hinduism of the past at which point it begins to become a silly argument of nomenclature. You can take India secularism as a continuation of the very same evolution of Hinduism. The future is the only place to go, the past is, well, best left behind.
     
  12. rcscwc

    rcscwc Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Illum, I suspect you are one of those who have problems accepting that place value, decimal systems etc were contributions of those who do not qualify to be called multi culture icons. So you make it out as Indo- Arabic system, and hence multi culturalism.
     
  13. illuminati

    illuminati Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Not quite, India isn't the engineering centre of the world. It was one hypothesis by one man at a point in history, don't sing mindless praises.

    Least, realise the limitations of your argument.

    Well, the other gentlemen suggested the old mathematician, for modern India, there just isn't another figure worthy of the stature of 'father of the nation'.

    I understand - hence unworthy of an politically influential spot, might I suggest?

    Yes, they were. Brahmin culture gave India it's identity and intangible ideas - they were the source of philosophy and basically can be credited when every Indian names his child with an Indic name. As history suggests, sanskrit like latin was restricted from the lower order, they basically were the scribes of Ancient India. Some utterly insane and plain evil in their exercise of the varna system - however, there were others who suggested ideas of reform.

    Like any other community, Brahmins have their share of good and evils - only fools will generalize.

    No it's not 'simple' - it is anything but simple. People have written millions of pages on these differences and they are simple to you. You have to realise that your demands require much more study and extensive understanding of what strain of Indic thought you are thinking you're representing.

    And they are maligned because of empty-headed clucks you have absolutely no scholastic background on the issues they are fighting so hard for.

    This ridicule, as far as I have understood after our little chinwag, is well-deserved. None of the points articulated, no evidence of meticulous thought.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2011
  14. illuminati

    illuminati Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    It has evolved, just like Christianity - the Christianity of John the baptist is utterly different from the Christianity of the anglican English and the Roman Catholics - then you have all kinds of strains - like Mormonism, the Methodists the Jehova's Witnesses. I would probably define Hinduism as a pluralistic (polytheistic) school of faith which has diverse traditions. You have these gentlemen trying to integrate the other faith groups within Hinduism not knowing how deep and complex it already is.

    It's already house full in Hinduism.

    Steven Weinberg once suggested that he found Hinduism of being merely a system of dos and don'ts like Judaism, educated followers don't really concern themselves with evangelism. Like any system, it has evolved but you can't deny a continuity within the process of evolution like that. Indra may not be worshipped tday, but in each of these sects, they praise his weapons and him still in their mantras. Suppose, you know the Durga pujas of East Bengal? Well, their Devi Mahatmya praises vedic Gods. The Ramayana demonstrates some form of continuity of ideas.

    These Hindu rashtra fanboys don't realise how closely the ideas in Ramayan (I've read the critical edition) seem to align with the Rg Ved. For example, the battle of ten kings, each side is led by either Vashisht and Valmiki. And this 'fight' seems to be 'mythified' in the Ramayana. In the Mahabharat, India's Iliad, one can trace a cultural continuity.

    It's like how a human cell would reproduce, the later ideas tend to appear more and the earlier is lost, that's why human beings age.

    If one agrees to your suggest, I'd be inclined to delink Sikhism - they have 10 gurus, right? So, since each is different from the last, I'd call it all different, so are they? In that case, Buddhism has some major questions given it is a complex school today, Tibeten (Vajrayana) is completely different from, Mahayana - likewise, Theraveda of Thailand and Sri Lanka.

    When you suggest evolution = null and void in continuity, I think within academia, the ideas accept evolution as continuity albeit the ideas being entirely different in the end.

    Having said that, even I don't think it's in the position to lead. No religion is.

    But in the process of it all, let's not take away more than what's necessary - people need some form of faith in environments prevalent in South Asia. If they realise the truth, there will be nothing but dispair and hopelessness.

    It's a direction less universe which, quite honestly, has no purpose or direction.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2011
  15. Bang Galore

    Bang Galore Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    ^^^ Agreed. Was making the point that you cannot simply turn back the evolutionary clock. The only option is to continue with that evolution & not try & create a mythical rashtra harking back to the past. That never has a happy ending. It's what happens when Muslims seem to want "Islamic states". They quickly find out that their version of the state is not necessarily the one being accepted/imagined & the proposition then turns nightmarish. Everybody is not on the same plane with relation to evolution of thought. What is acceptable to me may not necessarily be to someone else. In a secular dispensation, this remains primarily in the realm of drawing room discussions. However a religious state will have to necessarily have an opinion and that never end up well for those on the wrong end of the opinion. Manusmriti has plenty of such examples.
     
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