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I Oppose Aam Admi Party

Discussion in 'National Politics' started by tilopa, Nov 26, 2012.

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  1. tilopa

    tilopa Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Mr khujliwal-chamcha,
    May i remind that the present monopolies in india are mostly PSU or corporate which works in close tandem with the government.Sounds socialist naa?
    Jhollawala bhushan has already made it clear that he wants a "socialist type" economy.Socialism has no other meaning that what i have implied in my first line.Whatever "new" definition you are putting into is just a figment of your own imagination.

    Socialism in India was a brainchild of Nehru which has been continued by the nehru-gandhi clan who rules India till present date.
    The only thing which socialism in any form brings is poverty and corruption.
     
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  2. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    first thing Both are oppostion parties when a Government take such desicions they will protest Whats wrong in that...

    from your comparison it shows IAC (AAP) is not bothered by the issues affecting people
     
  3. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Corporates provide direct employment which contributes to govt tax kitty and also indirect employment opportunity. Like when a person starts a call center, he hires telecallers, that is direct employment but than he needs cabs to ferry his staff, that is indirect employment.
    Subsidy to the corporate ensures growth as govt gets more than the subsidy back as direct & indirect taxes. Agriculture has been growing at less than 2% and for last four decades it has grown at less than 3%. Its only industry/manufacturing/services sectors which are growing at over 7% for last 15 yrs. max employment has been generated by them. can you or the fishheads like khujliwala calculate and tell us the money collected by GOI thru excise, sales tax, VAT, income tax etc. Agriculture is only subsidy, corporates are income thru taxes. So pls do not post your stupid ideas here and if this is what your ideas are about running the economy of this nation, I must admit that you will kill this nation within one term at job. You guys have no idea as to how this whole system of governance works and than you want to change it.
     
  4. Kejriwal4PM

    Kejriwal4PM 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    AAP is bothered, but not by blowing up fiscal deficits like how BJP is doing along with its friends in Communist party.

    There should be a consolidation of revenue receipts by reducing social welfare to corporates and then a reduction in fuel taxes to bring down prices. This what AAP says in its prelim manifesto. It also says expert committee on economics is working on a full policy manifesto and will be open for public discussion soon.
     
  5. Kejriwal4PM

    Kejriwal4PM 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    By that logic Ambanis and Tatas should be taxed the least and landless tribals taxed the most! Thats like outdoing the tea party in stupidy (at least in USA, income disparities are not as high as in India). If BJP proposes such an absurd taxation while also calling for bandhs along with its communist friends when fuel prices are hiked, your last line suits BJP the most!
     
  6. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Whats wrong in friendship with Communist ? Communists are not banned in India
     
  7. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    What AAP/Bhushan are stating is the economic model of 50s/60s/70s/80s and era of Rajkapoor films where poverty was glorified. We all know what democracy has done for us and opening of economy has done to us. there is nothing wrong with our system of democracy. a system is never bad, its the people who make it bad. Why has the same model worked in Britain and not in India? Why has US model worked in US only and not in Iraq/Libya?Egypt/ They too were democracies. I know you guys will laugh at Iraq & Libya being called democracy but they did have regular elections.
    If you to change, change the mindset of people by making them aware of their rights and how to deal with things. We dont need to change the system, we need to tell and educate the people as to how to make this system work.
    AAP was against caste system and just yesterday I saw Khujliwala talking of giving representation to backwards, SCs/STs etc. Nikal gayee hawa maidan main aatay hee. Aatay daal ka bhav maloom pada na. You cant have truly secular and non caste based political system in India. If you practice one such system, the other castists will pull you down. Pls remember in India for most top jobs the only qualification at times is your caste and nothing else.
     
  8. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    This is the problem with you. Your level of understanding is so low that anykind of debate with you is nearly impossible. Do you know the difference between individuals and corporates they command? Do you know the diff between corporate tax and personal income tax? Do you know who gets what kind of subsidy when the subsidy is given to a corporate? Pls answer me first before I decide your level of knowledge on these issues and join you in debate.
     
  9. Kejriwal4PM

    Kejriwal4PM 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Govt has business to be in Air India. On the other hand, govt should have allowed PSU ONGC to keep its profits to itself so that it may be able to afford drills and platforms required for public utility service like exploration of nation's oil and gas resources. Instead, its profits were used to cross subsidize downstream OMCs, and ONGC was left to bleed dry. This was then exploited by Reliance to obtain KG-D6 rights, where it is operating in an alomost monopolistic way and subverting terms of contract in collusion with govt. How do you propose to bring free-market in this KG-D6 market? If ONGC had been profitable enough to obtain exploration rights, it would be fully under RTI and Lokpal and CAG audits. Now, CAG is not even able to prove Reliance's gold plating. The same situation in Delhi electricity where even High Courts came down strongly on collusion between delhi govt and reliance and tata discoms.

    This is what AAP is against - privatization in monopolistic and essential markets where free-markets dont exist and collusion is rampant. Your bogus definition of socialism is fit to be trashed!
     
  10. Kejriwal4PM

    Kejriwal4PM 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Because you miss the woods for the forest by focusing too much on example than the broader principle. Who gets the maximum share of the increased dividends resulting from decreased corporate taxes? The biggest share holders (tatas, ambanis etc). If you want, I can rephrase the example as: Reliance should be taxed the least whereas tribal cooperatives should be taxed the most?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    My grandfather died at the age of 99 yrs in 1999. In his childhood, he used to get Desighee for two annas/kg. Why is it past INR200/kg now? is it possible for you to promise it at that rate today? have you heard of inflation/WPI etc? Do you know the meaning of it? can any delhiite say that power situation has not improved remarkably in last five yrs?
    You shud challenge the corruption and not the methodology. Privatisation has brought benefits but political corruption is the root cause of the extra money that we are paying. Contrast this money with extra taxes which we had to pay to keep these PSUs running for their inefficiency and loot?
    Max amount of subsidy has always been given to PSUs the subsidy given to corporates is only a fraction of it. Now if we have socialist industrial structure with no accountability and poor efficiency or private enterprises with no control of corruption but great efficiency, which will be better for aam aadmi? GOI controls PDS from procurement to storage to distribution. A dream project of all socialists all over the world. What happens in PDS? No wheat/rice/kerosene. if at all any, its rotten and unfit for consumption. kerosene is sold openly by political mafias to adulterate patrol/diesel. two lakh crore worth of good quality PDS grain is sold to Nepal & Bangladesh by Mulayam but Khujliwala finds nothing wrong with it. he does not even raise his voice on it.
     
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  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    All CMDs/MDs/CEOs are also the employees of their industry. They get paid for the job they do and pay I/T on that. next comes share dividends. dividend is paid only when a company makes profit. And in case a dividend is paid, the GOI gets 35% as corporate tax. After that the net profit is calculated. Part of this net profit is than kept as reserves for future and part is paid as dividend to share holders who are the actual stakeholders in the biz. Payment of dividend attracts Dividend tax @ 20%. So GOI gets 55% of the profits if dividend is paid which is higher than personal I/T. I hope you know the taxation rules of India. I am a bizman now and I know them today as well as the aircraft I flew in Navy/civil
     
  13. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    BTW do agricultural/tribal/village cooperatives pay any taxes? Are they taxed at all by provisions of indian I/T act? Do they not get subsidies from GOI and Panchayats financial grant.
    Educate yourself here. I hope you know that all kind of income from agriculture is tax free in India and all politicians are agriculturists in India with per hectare income which is atleast 20 times the best agricultural lans of the world. Only problem is noone has seen those lands or crops which earn them such income.
    http://business.gov.in/taxation/co_operative_societies.php
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  14. Kejriwal4PM

    Kejriwal4PM 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    The annoying thing with you is that you brandish a small thing such as WPI/Inflation as something that is so complicated and holds the key to all the answers :D Just argue instead of such rhetorical questions - some people here are much smarter than we think of ourselves to be ;)

    Anyway, coming to your crux: Of course inflation is unavoidable but how much of it is unavoidable is the question. I thought that was obvious!

    Also, please read my comments above before repeating ourselves: I clearly said Bhushan and Arvind said they were only against privatization in those markets which are monopolistic public utility markets. Otherwise Bhushan would have spent years on 2G and Coalgate PILs where his whole argument was that govt should have gone for market-based auctioning system instead of discretionary allocation.

    Delhi's problem is with discoms (the tata and reliance) which has been using public infra like electric lines and substations and monopolistic access to market. The improvement in current situation is from power generation companies which certainly can be privatized since it can support many players where free-markets work.

    And you have not answered how do you propose free-markets to work in a monopolistic sector like KG-D6 exploration where it is unprofitable to break it into many smaller fields since it is capital intensive.

    PDS is surely leaky (and kejriwal did tweet about the UP PDS scam, unlike anyone from national BJP). But also look at the parallel private sector: I myself did a check once where tomatoes were selling at around 4Rs/Kg in wholesale markets where farmers bring their produce while it was sold at around 19Rs/Kg in retail markets barely 100Km away. Even with privatization, why is it that neither producer nor consumer is getting the benefit? Its because collusion and cartel formation is as big a hurdle in free-market as leakages are in statist policies. I latter got to know that wholesale buyers collude with each other at the farmer's market and will delay purchasing till the day end forcing the farmers to give it away at throwaway prices, while this same colluding group sells them at much higher prices in towns. Any new player who is willing to pay more to farmers is threatened away by the cartel, unless it is a big player like Bharti etc. Controlling cartels and collusions in millions of wholesale markets in rural India is as difficult as controlling leakages in statist policies.
     
  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Do you know that NAMO whom you have trashed so much headed a commetee for agricultural reforms and that report has been quietly burried by congress. He stated that firstly the system wherein a farmer is forced to sell only in govt controlled mandies be abolished and second most important was to ban all forward trading of food articles.
    Who created MCX in India? Who allowed everything from Onions to pulses be traded there and cost escalation? Why are farmers not allowed to sell directly to consumers? You need to know the facts first before making up your mind and shooting from the hip.
    I am sure you will now say that if NAMO knows it why has he not implemented it in Gujrat? Well this comes under center and not under states. As per financila powers of states and center, the sale of goods capable of being sold interstate is controlled by center.
     
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