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IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by PARIKRAMA, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    One example, to setup a plant, you need the land but to clear the land in India, the govt. could end up fighting case in Civil court upto 15 years with the farmers, environment activists, NGO's etc. For China a simple sign by higher official of PRC is more than enough.
     
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  2. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    You need the DARPA like authority in India, for such strategic combined coordinated thinkings.
     
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  3. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Highly confidential.

    For you rest assure Denuclearization of Pakistan, a country which is unreliable, irresponsible is inevitable and not too far.
     
  4. Anish

    Anish Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    The flyaway cost is higher but maintainence cost is Lower and most importantly both availability is very high and attrition is near zero. Mirage 2000 being single engine is safer to fly than both Mig 29 and Su 30.

    Congress bought Mig 27 and Mig 23 when IAF out rightly rejected them on technical grounds.

    ADA has stopped all work on Tejas Mk2.

    Govt. has put F-16/Gripen procurement on top priority to fill in role of light combat multirole aircraft to replace frontline Mig's.

    FGFA will come in when Russia develops Su-50 and IAF gives list of changes like in Su 30 case.

    A squadron of Su-50's may be imported in vanilla conditions front Russia and the Su-50's made later in India as Su 50 MKI ( Made Commercially in India ) will be what we call FGFA ( Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft)
     
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  5. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    That much info is more than enough for now.

    Just know that Nukes of Pakistan is the last thing which will deter us in a conflict with them.
     
  6. Bloom 17

    Bloom 17 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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  7. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Yes but the flyaway cost was almost more than double.
    MIG 29 was bought to counter the PAF F16. The induction of F16 A in PAF at that time was the shock to the IAF, since it was the most advance aircraft in the whole Asia.

    SU 30MKI was the turning point, since for the first time, IAF gets some of the capabilities to the IAF, which it never experience earlier, and changed the strategy of the aerial combat of the IAF.

    Dude comparing apple and oranges. MIG 27 was the excellent aircraft. It is the Ground attack aircraft, thus have devestating firepower, and a bullet proof titanium Tub cockpit and when it was procured, it was one of the best ground attack, anti armour aircraft in the world and the problem with this aircraft is its powerplant (engine). But it would have been better if the GOI have choosen SU 24 instead of Mig 27 the crisis condition won't be so grim at present.

    Proof or link

    We don't have the funds required, to replace them 1 to 1 basis. The best option is the Combat Hawk for the replacement of the MIG 21MF and could be produced 30 units/year with the cost 15-20 Million Dollor.

    Dure FGFA and PAK FA are completely different aircraft, Smaller in size, more stealthy, high usage of composites instead of Titanium alloy. Don't mix with the SU 30 and SU 30MKI with the FGFA.
     
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  8. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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  9. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    What is surprising is the extent of False Representations and Promises made by LM as part of its Presentations

    • LM said Under MII two F16's are suppose to come around the price of a imported Rafale according to a slide presented by the makers.
    • LM forgot that DRAL slides for Rafale showed MII Rafale at Rs 640 Crs , a 20% reduction from Rs 800 Crs per plane produced in France for India.
    • With rudimentary style, F16 per plane is same at Rs 800 Crs for MII but they say its half of imported Rafale 36 deal to camouflage it.
    • In short MII Rafale and MII F16 are almost similarly priced.
    • What they dont realise the imported Rafale of 36 deal has many components which is for a fleet customization and also has hardened set up which costs additional owing to "specific' requirements sought.
    • When made in India , DRAL will have almost everything for which India already paid a "price"
    • Furthermore LM claims attack maneuvers and training will be shared and with flight costs for two F16's just near that of a Rafale.
    • When grilled for Opex and CPFH, they could not explain much.
    • No where they have been able to prove that Heat Signature of F16 will not cause any issue inspite of its engine being a huge source of IR
    LM Marketing along with Saab Marketing makes many in MOD blind and not see the pifalls

    BTW an internal investigation talked earlier now covers network infestation with sleeper code in MKI digital suit, its recently been expanded to include other aircrafts in IAF as well.

    This implies the anti hack capabilities and suits against cyber warfare is of prime importance. Both F16s and Gripen E is found wanting in this category and a Israeli solution is expected to eb put additionally to safeguard these jets. That also means its additional cost and LM/Saab did nt declare its vulnerability, rather IAF found it in assessment.
     
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  10. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @PARIKRAMA

    Suppose we totally DUMP this F 16 plan ; will India US strategic alliance get DERAILED

    Have they put F 16 as a Pre condition for any meaningful alliance

    Obviously F 16 is not saving us money

    Can we not buy something else from USA

    By the way some Russian guy from Another Indian forum was saying that 3 PAK FA prototypes
    will come to India Next year onwards

    And why do you think that Russian avionics need to be replaced for PAK FA

    Are they giving us a downgraded version
     
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  11. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Well basically a frontline American hardware sends two msgs - one our belief in them and second it showcases the strength of the relationship.

    If i have the option, i would rather advocate naval ships. I dare say instead of $15 Bn planned for 90 Jets by MOD under MII, i would rather advocate two things here

    1. Use $ 5 Bn and set up a line for LCA under pvt sector and order first batch of jets under a targeted purchase order of say 100-150. This helps us have two lines - one at HAL capable of say 16 Jets a year and a pvt sector having another 16/year capacity. This helps address the shortfall quickly and gives a big boost to local MIC. This is inspite of all teh hassles in thsi project.
    2. Use $ 10 Bn and purchase 10-15-20 Ships from USA Shipyards and build them in flat 3-5 years. These 10+ ships armed to the teeth with LR SAMS (Barak 8 and Barak 8 ER) and some new LACMs and Anti Ship Missiles will be an awesome addition. Arm them with ASW capability and they go a long way for our CBGs as well.
    There is no precondition of F16 procurement.

    The only place F16 is made pre condition when we wanted F35 instead of F16 and USA /LM clearly said we have to take F16 first and later get F35.

    As of now no prototypes are envisioned due to Item 30 test being pending and requisite Flight hours of testing pending. Assuming it does 1200 flight hours with I-30 new engine it will attain IOC with this new engine and 2000 flight hours for FOC as per standard conditions. If a waiver is given, then it will be an Indian IAF/MOD joint call but generally i do believe they will wait for at least 1200 hours of new flight time.

    Since we had a issue with our MKI engines, i wont be surprised if IAF insists on 2000 hours flight hours as well to cross check everything.

    Thus i dont see the 3 PMF protos arriving so soon.

    Certain avionics needs a further improvement as required by IAF. Russian solutions are robust but not everything meet western standards.. IAF after using Israeli and french avionics know these needs to be put from Day 1 so these customizations are part of FGFA.

    Down rating depends upon whether we are paying for accessing that technology or not. We might not pay for few since we already know we are going to procure off the shelf solutions and thus they may come at lower standard than typical PAKFA birds.
     
  12. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Borrowed security comes at a cost and 3-4 decades is too long and you risk losing local expertise to foreign projects like the lca mk2 to the f15 f35 to the fgfa and so on.

    You know what lets be cheeky here and say india will buy the Abrahams tank and that will kill the arjun, quiet weird develop a tank to confront a tank only to drop the developing tank to buy the tank your were meant to confront. I wont be surprised if that happened you know. You cant force people out of black money that will cost you big time and may even cost you the election.


    Brexit was a fu*kup simply because the media and and some nearly bold orangutan and his bit*h went on a over drive campaign. But the migrant campain and the lack of voters meant our fate was sealed, people was googling “what is brexit” AFTER the elections!!!!


    If its short term pain and a risk of long term gain then I wont be very confidant either.


    But don’t you think due to the recent shift to the yanks would effect any deal of tot from happening, what time scale are we looking at for the t-50/fgfa, your western neighbour is mostlikely getting fifth gen fighter early-mid 2020’s and the Chinese looking at a full fat medium cat 5th gen fighter, the j-20 being heavy and the j-31 being light/mid.

    Any details on the nv rafale?




    Really the same league… so why don’t india scrap the fgfa and go all out on the rafale if its so good? And how do you know Chinese fighters are not as good, the yanks cut production short on the f22 because china and Russia are quickly reaching technical parity with Europe and the usa. It would not make sense going for more f22 when the advancements in sensors would meant stealth is quickly becoming overated, ask the Israelis there saying the same. Never underestimate your enemies as it may be the last thing you do.


    So would india make the spectra? Would they be given access to source codes?

    As for keveri india needs to do what Russia did with the ssj100 engines, have the French make the combustion chamber, hpt, lpt, and possibly the high pressure compressor to save time.

    Whats dral?


    Bloody hell in the even of war with them its just the jags mk2(whats flight worthy due to upgrades) and mig 29’s.

    Mki would only be good for rajastan and that’s because of the range the inferior r77 and r27’s are useless as they would see the huge mki and engage it further with the sd-10. Apparently its as good as the aim-120c5 and has a slightly better range hence the large order for them.

    Does india not have hardened hangers for the mk1?





    The f16 is a beast, have you seen the uae f16’s, monsters. The most powerfull engine available the gef110-132 has wet thrust of 144kn more than your huge al31’s on the mki’s

    Course they may not allow the astra to be intrigated on the f16 but the aim-120’s and aim-9’s will compensate that. The gripen-e is similar to the f16 but teven with the new engine it would struggle in the northern areas of even Kashmir. How will the lca cope in these areas?



    The russains are desperate if there negotiating on allowing the meteor. That’s blastphemy ! the Russians are working on a more advanced r77 and r73, they have dropped the r77 ramjet version.

    Looking forward to the test.

    Whats the range of the scalp er?



    Well it’s a balancing act, you actually pay less for the gripen an the f16 if the route is taken.

    As for the tot on the rafale, can india successfully absorb and reutilise the tech on other products?



    As for trying to bankrupt them, that’s not gonna work as they buy things on low to no interest credit,right now there buying tanks fron urkraine, ships from turkey subs from china and the j31 from china which will be public in a few years id imagine. Money is not gonna bring them down.


    Taking out Pakistani nukes is a dream and suicide the usa will not openly support such action the Israelis too as they would face too much backlash leaving india in the firing line as for black hawks, they can be purchased quiet easily as for v22 even the usa will be pushing it too far.




    110 million is that for the indian spec. that’s not bad, our typhoons for for about that much since they removed r&d from the cost


    Made me feel left out
     
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  13. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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  14. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    @PARIKRAMA

    Thank goodness. .

    Your 2 posts were better than any military novel I ve read so far..

    I may reread multiple times.

    And you've went on with info offensive. :)
     
  15. dadeechi

    dadeechi Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    This question would only arise if India is being led by a non-BJP government.

    BJP is fully pro-west. I said this many years ago and people on the other forum thought that I was crazy and countered & tried to educate me that Modi's visa was denied.

    It would be a surprise if they chose a Russian platform.

    We cannot expect Modi doing a MMS like in the case of nuclear deal where India went for C-17 , C-130Js & P-8Is for the $10 billion promised business in lieu of MMRCA which US was expecting from India.

    The key question - is India going sign CISMOA to get F-16s or select F-16s to sign the CISMOA.

    Many may think it to be the former but the reality is that it is the latter.
     
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