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IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by PARIKRAMA, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    No private company will want to compete with HAL.

    Better option is to buy SH for the IN.

    The F-35 will lose its relevance by then.
     
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  2. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Do you believe it's possible or likely that the IAF may successfully push the MoD to focus on LCA's and Rafales instead of F-16's, and put the money meant for F-16's towards some other American hardware that India actually needs?

    Or is the F-16 purchase likely?
     
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  3. Lion of Rajputana

    Lion of Rajputana Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Exactly, I also actively look forward to his big "sansani khulaasa" posts like the ones in this thread. But unfortunately he never tags me so I always have to dig through all the threads for his latest comments long after they've been posted :disagree:
     
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  4. Angel Eyes

    Angel Eyes 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    We should lease submarines from the American instead of buying f 16 ........
    1.) Indian Navy is in dire need of submarines.
    2.) This will tell us whether Americans are serious in this security partnership if they are willing to lease their frontline submarines to us or not
     
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  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    India is not just buying F16s its buying the F16 business.
     
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  6. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Lockheed to Move F-16 Production to South Carolina
    [​IMG]

    March 22, 2017



    The new, smaller line will better suit the dwindling orders for the venerable fighter jet, while freeing up space for F-35 production.

    After building F-16 fighter jets for more than four decades in Texas, Lockheed Martin plans to move the production line to South Carolina, where it will build new versions of the venerable combat aircraft for U.S. allies.

    Lockheed will deliver the last F-16 from its Fort Worth factory in September, then take a two-year break in production to move the line to Greenville, S.C., the head of the firm’s aeronautics sector said Tuesday. Dwindling orders make the break possible.

    Back in Texas, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter assembly line will expand into the vacated space.

    “Recognizing that we’re going to pretty much have a full facility at Fort Worth, we’ve been looking at other alternatives,” Orlando Carvalho, executive vice president of Lockheed Martin’s Aeronautics business area, said in an interview Tuesday.


    Economic factors led Lockheed executives to choose Greenville, a city where the firm already has facilities. Union workers currently build F-16s in Fort Worth, but South Carolina is a right-to-work state.


    “When you restart a line, there’s going to be cost there to get it back up and running again,” Carvalho said. “With the cost structure that we have at Greenville, that’s an enabler for us being able to stand the line up there.”

    F-16s have been built inside Air Force Plant 4, a mile-long factory in Fort Worth, since the 1970s. Even though the U.S. Air Force placed its last order for F-16s in 1999, production there has continued for American allies. But in recent years, the F-16 production line has shrunk as orders have dwindled.

    Over the past decade, the F-35 assembly line has slowly taken over the space where the F-16s were once built. As F-35 production expanded, F-16 production contracted to a small section in the back of the massive factory. The only planes left on the assembly line are for the Iraqi Air Force.

    “The challenge for us was: how do you slow the production rate down and still keep the airplane affordable,” Carvalho said.

    Stopping and starting production usually comes at a cost. Suppliers could charge more for parts and workers could lose experience.

    The F-16 production line in South Carolina will be small, but is still expected to create between 200 and 250 new jobs in Greenville.

    “It’s not a huge footprint,” Carvalho said. “It’s not the mile-long factory you saw with the F-35.”

    In its heyday, Lockheed’s Fort Worth plant was churning out one F-16 a day. Now only a few prospects remain. Bahrain is reported to want as many as 19 jets and additional orders are anticipated from Indonesia and Colombia. Those planes would all be built in Greenville. There’s also a potential order for India, which could lead to an additional F-16 factory overseas.

    Lockheed and rival Boeing are each pitching fighter jets to India, a key U.S. ally that is calling for new fighters to be co-produced locally as part of its Make in India initiative. The Obama administration supported making the planes in India, but President Donald Trump has yet to weigh in.
    Trump has threatened to punish American companies that move manufacturing and jobs from the U.S. to locations overseas. He has praised companies for canceling plans to move business overseas. But for defense firms who are targeting the foreign markets creating indigenous jobs overseas has become the price of doing business. India and Middle Eastern nations are more often calling for co-production as a price of doing business.

    Building the F-16 outside of the U.S. is not a new concept; jets have been made in Europe and Asia over the years while simultaneously being built in Fort Worth.

    “We certainly want the new administration to have an appreciation for how these co-production models work and then what those co-production models mean to an opportunity like the F-16 in India,” Carvalho said.

    “I think right now the administration is taking the time to understand, taking the time to learn, taking the time to get an appreciation of all of this to ultimately arrive at a policy decision,” he said.

    If Lockheed wins the India fighter deal, its first jets would likely be built in Greenville while a factory is stood up in India.

    Lockheed has had a presence in Greenville for more than three decades, performing maintenance work on the P-3 Orion, C-130 cargo planes, KC-10 tankers and the C-9 medical transports.

    Last year, Lockheed announced it would assemble T-50 pilot training jets in Greenville if it wins a multibillion U.S. Air Force deal for 350 planes later this year. The firm is already flight testing two T-50s and is assembling two additional jets in Greenville.

    Shifting F-16 production to Greenville would not eliminate any jobs in Fort Worth as workers are being offered new F-35 manufacturing positions, Carvalho said. In addition to the workers that transition, Lockheed also expects to hire about 1,000 new F-35 workers in Fort Worth.[​IMG]
     
  8. Anish

    Anish Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Mirage 2000 was initially bought in to counter F-16. Then govt changed to congress which bought in Mig-29.

    Please note M2000 was IAF choice and Mig29 was INC choice.

    Then INC further over IAF objecting brought in Mig-27 which later was discovered to have design flaws but not before Mig 23 was bought politically.

    As a result Mig23/27 have crashed in unimaginable numbers more than 150 crashes between them.

    Tejas Mk2 all work stopped. Proof check Sjha1618 timeline on twitter. He is an insider.

    $25 billion for 200 F-16 or Gripen MII.

    Govt. has pushed it on top priority. We need single engine light combat aircraft and F-16 or Gripen are the two most probable.

    Your personal choice is Combat Hawk but it remains well your personal choice.
     
  9. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Very tough.. at best they may get what they want in order to toe the line of the government.

    Political decision making is certain..
     
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  10. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    So how many Rafales and how many F-16s?
     
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  11. HELLBENT

    HELLBENT FULL MEMBER

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    @PARIKRAMA

    this question is specifically for u

    what is the status of LCA MK2 ?

    has work on it stopped ?
    or has HAL taken over it ?

    if you know plz answer or if possible ask your source

    (reason i asked is i dont believe indian presstitudes who are agents for foreign arm companies, cant blame them everybody wants to make money)

    thanku
     
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  12. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Yep me too.. But I am ok with it. Probably tagged members give valuable inputs.. In the subject.

    Sometimes when someone tags me , i feel i am letting them down if I am not able reply anything worthy .
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  13. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It surprises me a lot: France has done the Rafale with already techniques that bring stealth. The Rafale is not completely stealthy but it is stealthy in pieces and the intersection of two stealth surfaces creates "spike" which are eliminated by absorbing materials and by "active cancellation".
    Dassault was able to do this because there are in its proprietary version of CATIA modules that make it possible to design stealth surfaces. With the Neuron CATIA models have been tested more thoroughly and refined and now Dassault has the tools to easily design a stealth aircraft if asked.

    • There was an offer from them for pseudo stealth Rafale that used missile encloses but those lead to bad stability and handling.
    It's also surprising because Dassault is known for the quality of its FCS and I think it is able to make it transparent for the pilote.
     
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  14. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What about the other meeting you mentioned? IAF scratches MoD back by approving F-16 and they get the Rafale in numbers they want?
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Please mate, whoever told you this nonsense, is playing you!

    So they are sceptical about a stealth fighter, because the future counter measures of a non stealth fighter, could be as good, although not even better?

    Doesn't that actually means the Russians have improved their EW capability to the same level as the west, which rather is a compliment, than something to be skeptical about?

    IAF also seems to be able to predict the future now, because apparently they were able to assess the F4 upgrade of Rafale 2 years ago, although the French just started the development and the contracts with the capabilities it might get, will be done only by 2019!

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/france-launches-f4-standard-rafale-development-435500/

    Why bother with Rafale, FGFA or even AMCA? When you can predict the future, even LCA is enough.
    And I won't even waste more time to point out that the prime factor of stealth is the best defence anyway. It's just an insane claim and comparison to make, to justify more Rafales.

    Highly doubtful, since Parrikar as well as all important IAF officials insisted on medium class fighters and Saab itself was offering the Gripen E under MII.

    http://indiandefence.com/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-280#post-562734
    (Post #4198)

    There are so many wrong things in this, that makes it more than questionable.

    So you are saying Dassault is lying when they claim about 1500Km combat range of the Mirage 2000?

    =>
    https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/customer-support/operational-aircraft/mirage-2000-2/

    Once again the myth of twin engines = more range or endurance is nonsense! A single engine Mirage 2000, that is lighter than a Mig 29, that has an engine that consumes less fuel than the 2 thirsty Russian engines and that can carry a decent amount of internal and external fuel (if wing tanks can be used), offers plenty of range and endurance. That's why it is used for deep strikes with Scalp cruise missiles or heavy strikes like IAF wants to do it with SPICE 2000 or Crystal Maze.

    So Rafales advantage in that regard is not the number of it's engines, but that it can carry up to 6000l external fuel in strike roles! The same reasons why the Israeli added larger fuel tanks to their F16 Sufas, or why the Gripen E has 50% more internal fuel and up to 5100l external fuel.

    We really have to get over the claims about single engine fighters and the silly comparison of medium class fighters to LCA, only because they have just 1 engine, they are not in the same class when it comes to range, load capabilities or even at techs!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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