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IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Discussion in 'Defence Analysis' started by PARIKRAMA, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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  2. somedude

    somedude Captain FULL MEMBER

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    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...sions-of-tejas-arjun/articleshow/61620740.cms

    Follow link for full article, I'm just pasting the last part.

     
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  3. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Whether we like it or not we have to face a Very Powerful Combination of
    China and Pakistan

    Soon we will see PLA and PLAAF officially deployed in Pakistan

    Our Problems are just starting ; we need to Increase our strength
    WITH the Limited Resources that we have

    And Time is also a Very important factor
    All the Perspective planning goes haywire when DRDO is unable to deliver
     
  4. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Wondering, was the money properly invested since the beginning or was there an underestimation that finally cost much more than a proper investment plan? (dunno if i'm clear)
     
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  5. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Rejecting Arjun tanks, Tejas jets bodes well for 'Make in India', but introspection needed on defence priorities
    IndiaFP EditorsNov, 14 2017 15:19:57 IST

    If one is to go by the recent news reports, the Indian military has effectively junked two flagship desi weapons platforms — Arjun Main Battle Tank and Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.

    What has triggered these reports are two developments, first, the Indian Army's issue of preliminary tender last week for next-generation tanks called 'Future Ready Combat Vehicles (FRCV)' and the Indian Air Force's strong pitch for a single engine fighter jets. These two instances have been taken as decisive examples of the Indian military's clear preference for foreign equipment over their indigenous equivalents or rather outdated 'equivalents'.


    While a natural tendency would be to see these rejections as the failure of the 'Make in India' policy, one has to take a nuanced view of these developments.

    In case of both the Arjun MBT and the Tejas LCA, it has always been the case of unfulfilled promises with India’s defence research establishment sorely guilty of over-promising and then under delivering to the Indian armed forces.

    Having worked for years on Soviet tanks, the Arjun MBT was, strictly speaking, a downgrade for the Indian Army. The same goes for the Tejas LCA and the Indian Air Force, especially considering the IAF is being promised Rafale — the 'Rolls Royce’ of fighter aircraft — and has worked on Sukhoi jets.

    Having already invested significant resources in these two projects, it would have reflected badly on the Indian defence research establishment had these two platforms been shelved even before their induction into the services. Therefore, their induction was carried out in limited numbers. Yet, even as these inductions happened, a strong warning came from the serving officials of the consequent impact on India's military preparedness. Something that remains unacceptable given the revanchist behaviour of our neighbours on the eastern and western flank.

    As mentioned before, this was particularly worrisome for the Indian Air Force which had already drawn up battle plans with Rafales in mind but was forced to substantially revise them with considerably lower speed and less capable Tejas LCA, whose combat worthiness has not been tested at all.

    As we move forward, we have to learn our lessons from Arjun MBT and Tejas LCA. We have to look at them as technology demonstrators and move on to build a viable defence industry base. We also have to learn that 'Make in India' does not necessarily mean developing capabilities in all kinds of weapons platforms — rather developing a niche in certain areas such as aerospace, as demonstrated by private Indian defence players who are gradually building their capabilities by being part of the supply chain of global aerospace giants such as Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Sikorsky.

    World over there are enough examples to suggest that barring US, Russia, UK and China, most other prominent producers in global arms market have developed a niche in one particular category, for example, Brazil’s Embraer. Surely, as a great power, we have to aspire where China, Russia or the US are, but that won’t be achieved if we try to become 'jack of all trades'. There needs to be serious introspection in the policy establishment on our defence priorities and how they can be achieved. It certainly won’t look good if we manage to produce a state of the art aerospace equipment while failing to provide even a modicum of decent rifles for our armed forces.

    A reasonable approach would be to decide the areas which we want to excel in and become self-reliant and then decide to either import or license-produce rest of the needed equipment.

    Also, the constant endeavour to produce tanks or fighter jets seems so outdated when one looks at the advent of unmanned systems and artificial intelligence in the global military space. While we certainly can’t think of producing such equipment, we can certainly ideate and pull together our resources for this. 'Cyber Military Industrial Complex', anyone?


    Published Date: Nov 14, 2017 09:33 am | Updated Date: Nov 14, 2017 03:19 pm

    http://www.firstpost.com/india/reje...ion-needed-on-defence-priorities-4208353.html

    No one rejected LCA as the article says or teh comment about LCA being slow.. But the underlying tone to look at MIC from another perspective is a bit fresh.. so posted..

    @Hellfire - you provided inputs ?
     
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  6. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Armed forces say no to advanced versions of indigenous 'Tejas', 'Arjun'

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...sions-of-tejas-arjun/articleshow/61620740.cms


    But all this cuts little ice with the forces, which say the DRDO-defence PSU lobby "over-promises and then under-delivers" with huge time and cost overruns.

    "Can operational military readiness be sacrificed at the altar of indigenisation?" asked a lieutenant general.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This My Friends is the Billion Dollar Question
     
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  7. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    I'm really curious. What led to that "single engine" proposal? Looks exacctly like if someone had read the old SAAB sponsored Jane's report and made of it an article of faith (single engine will always be cheaper....) instead of "we want a plane capable of performing X missions (derined) within Y time etc. (specifications instead of already defined engineering chara cteristics). Looks weird to me.
     
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  8. Zer0reZ

    Zer0reZ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Doval go there and ask IAF what if we scrap MMRCA tender and IAF said in response and compare current Tejas with aircrafts we will be getting by 2022/24, i don't understand the fuss here. And when did IAF rejected Tejas?
     
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  9. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Our @Abingdonboy in a candid chat with his connect in Dassault got the following snippet
    • Recently, DA re-submitted an offer to work with ADA to come up with a comprehensive design and production plan for AMCA
    • This was done based on consultations that team Dassualt had with ADA over the last 18 months.
    • DA is the only entity outside of India to have been shared raw technical data and design plans for AMCA as well as IAF/IN requirements.
    • Based on intended class and role DA feel that they are the best option for AMCA given that the Rafale will be continuously developed for the next 20+ years and much of the tech that is coming to India can be leveraged into AMCA
    • DA also keen to use AMCA as a test bed for tech and design cues for their own upcoming next gen fighter
    • Also, DA has worked with ADA to already come up with a comprehensive tier 1/2/3 supplier list in India based on the work being done on LCA.
    • Target for private contribution on AMCA is >80% (LCA is >70% currently)
    • Engine choice is planned from Safranised Kaveri family only and needs inputs to lock in the same fro further design maturity
    • Decision now in MODs hands to take it fwd.

    @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Vergennes @CNL-PN-AA @halloweene
    @vstol jockey @Abingdonboy @Agent_47 @Ankit Kumar 001 @randomradio @Gessler @Hellfire @nair @GuardianRED @zebra7 @stephen cohen @Sancho @Lion of Rajputana @Sathya @somedude @W@rwolf @proud_indian @dadeechi @Angel Eyes @all others[/QUOTE]


    Superb News and this is what i had been saying... LCA collaboration and AMCA Collaboration.. i hope MOD decide on it soon..
     
  10. stephen cohen

    stephen cohen Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Excellent news ; we can use all the Knowledge and experience gained from LCA so far
    and use it for AMCA ; there is no need to feel bad about LCA

    In the Mid 90s our Space programme and IT Industry Both were Just Finding their Feet

    Twenty years later ; Look where they are Today
     
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  11. X_Killer

    X_Killer Captain FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ‘Major boost’ to the LCA Tejas program, one that ‘reposes faith’, says HAL as IAF Southern Command chief Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria takes a 30-minute solo sortie today. Statement from HAL today minces no words as a pretty emotional response to the IAF's recent assault on the LCA Tejas. Full statement:
    Bengaluru, November 14, 2017: The induction and operationalization of the indigenous fighter jet Light Combat Aircraft-Tejas received a major boost with Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria, AVSM, VM, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Air Command undertaking a solo flight for 30 minutes from HAL Airport, here today. Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD-HAL thanked the AOC-in-C for reposing the faith on this advanced and indigenous combat aircraft.
    HAL has established the state-of-the-art aircraft assembly line including second production line for LCA to meet the operational requirements of the IAF. Currently, HAL has the production capacity of eight LCAs per annum and is ramping up the capacity to 16. The ramping-up cost is shared equally by HAL and IAF/Navy. Major sub-assembly such as front, centre and rear fuselages and wings have been outsourced to the private players. The 45 Squadron of the IAF “The Flying Daggers” was the first squadron to be equipped with LCA-Tejas in July last year. Today, the Squadron hosted the Air Marshal Bhadauria, who has been associated with the Tejas programme for long.
    The Squadron which is expected to move to its permanent location at Sulur, near Coimbatore, next year is presently involved in training of Air and Ground Crew, formulation of procedures and realization of the operational potential of the aircraft. Apart from the much appreciated participation in the Republic Day and Air Force Day fly-pasts the squadron has also undertaken detachments at operational bases to test the weapon capability of this agile aircraft.
    With the induction of an additional assembly line, HAL is all set to ramp-up the production rate in order to meet the delivery schedules.
     
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  12. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Superb News and this is what i had been saying... LCA collaboration and AMCA Collaboration.. i hope MOD decide on it soon..[/QUOTE]
    This is what I also wrote to NSA very recently. The aim shud be to ensure that after rafale, we never ever have to import another aircraft. LCA+MSA+AMCA with rafale shud be our final line up.
     
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  13. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    I only hope sanity prevails and Dassault delivers properly on offsets ..

    sky is the limit for opportunities for Dassault and France .. the civilian aerospace industry and airbus also will see massive requirements.. helos , choppers, carriers, submarines, missiles... so many places...

    just dont try to kill the golden goose.. be partners and look to walk together into the future..
     
  14. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Angel or Devil? Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Bro, we said it here... the mud slinging campaign will continue but here is the proof.. of what IAF thinks about LCAs...
     
  15. The enlightened

    The enlightened Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Indian R&D projects are always grossly underfunded. I don't think our babus understand what R&D means.

    NAL Saras was put out after spending just 500 crores ($75 million) over 20 years. LCA program started with an outlay of only 560 crore. They spent 8000 crores ($1.2 billion) in development including prototypes and infra over 30 years.

    Meanwhile they had no problem spending 10 times that amount annually in imports. In fact India funded Russia to the tune of $700mn for MKI development LOL.

    In 1961, we needed to spend 13 million pounds to develop the Orpheus engine for Marut but the geniuses decided that was too costly. At one point the Americans offered to finance 75% of development but the geniuses once again found spending money on Soviet imports was a better option. Ultimately Marut got binned for imports due to its weak engines.

    It is too tragic to think about but all these failures are ultimately fully deserved. I don't think things are gonna change in the future either. Even in our little corner of internet here, plenty of people display the same tracts. They think R&D is magic that happens by itself and we don't need to invest time and money in our projects and industry today because those projects are oh so bad and there will be something better tomorrow.

    Its the same cycle repeating itself.
     
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