Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

India Doesn’t Require F-16s When it Has Tejas

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by layman, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,731
    Likes Received:
    2,055
    But you don't need to add another type to cover the payload limitations, just more Rafales would be enough.


    In that case the PM is making a bad job, because he had the competition in the MMRCA tender with Rafale and EF, all he had to do if he wasn't happy with the French offer, was to ask the EF partners for one.
    Similarly, he scrapped the LUH tender and went to a bad single vendor deal, which actually excluded privat vendors.
    The Avro replacement also ended in a single vendor situation, since no other vendor than Tata showed interest.
     
    zebra7 likes this.
  2. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    9,415
    Likes Received:
    4,275
    This argument doesn't make sense. Nobody is unhappy about Rafale.

    Neither Rafale nor EF are replacements for Tejas, F-16, Gripen etc.

    The Ka-226 was supposed to go to Reliance, but the Russians vetoed it. They wanted to deal with HAL.

    The Russians kinda fear the private industry. Or because they can get what they want from HAL.

    That has nothing to do with the govt. Single vendor situations are commonplace here. No other industry is as ready as TATA when it comes to such projects. But that's also why we need two competing private players.

    I bet the future on Reliance and TATA.
     
    zebra7 and IndiranChandiran like this.
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Major Technical Analyst

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,731
    Likes Received:
    2,055
    Not with the fighter, but with the number of them and the disappointing outcome for the industry. 5 x squads less, no licence production, 1000s of jobs that was meant to be created in the industry that didn't come. So there are plenty people that are disappointed, but the fact is that they didn't used the competition they already had (between Rafael as and EF) leverage and now want a new fighter tender, that takes even more time and adds another fighter type

    Which still is a result of the single vendor situation the government created against their own make in India policy. If they had went on with the tender, HAL and privat industry would have team up with foreign vendors first and we actually had a competition. Most likely Tata and Airbus would had teamed up again, but we never know.

    True, because the former government had exactly the same result, when they asked Indian industry to team up with foreign vendors for this tender. Which just shows that the PM and the new government haven't changed much to get more competition.
     
  4. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 Major RESEARCHER

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,619
    Likes Received:
    1,471
    Country Flag:
    France
    crapnard as usual posting biased & misinformed articles .

    For india best thing in my opinion should be to buy a single engine plane which fulfills india's objectives
    1) Make in INDIA
    either through tie up with Indian company

    2)Help the development of LCA mark 2 by developing futuristic tech like gaN aesa tech , advanced EW systems
    plus CFTs ,engine tech


    BUying F 16 would defintely annoy the russians and the russians would sell their platforms like Mig 35/ su 35
    to pak .
    meanwhile buying Gripen would allow easy integration of meteor missiles as it is going to be armed in rafale .
    so it might cost a less to buy missiles for gripen ,but yes gripen meteor is differnt version thats also a point

    gripen has a future but not F16

    IMO gripen would be good & best for india

    CHEERS
     
  5. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2017
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    338
    Country Flag:
    India
    Don't worry India will let pakistan have some of them if they act as Gentleman.

    Gentlemen of the French guard,fire first !
     
  6. zebra7

    zebra7 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    701
    Likes Received:
    652
    Country Flag:
    India
    They have JF17 Jangi Tayare and its block 3 is just few month away with AESA Radar, Stealth coating and design, composite, IRST, Internal Jammer, ultra long range PL15 BVRAAM with 160 km range, Raa'd, babar, and even 2 shaheen missile mounted in its wing tip, and smoothbore gun of indegenous Al-Khalid, and yes anza 1 and 2 mounted in its tail for close range dog fighting. In all 1 JF17 equals to 10 F-16block 52.


    Anyway, few F-16 to fill the gap would be the stupid idea, there are few more options namely
    1. more MKI order to relieve some pressure
    2. 140 Jaguar to Darin 3 upgrade.
    3. Combat Hawk for CAS, which HAL can produce in large number quickly.
    4. Few squardon of old Mirrage 2000.
     
  7. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2017
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    338
    Country Flag:
    India
    Here is something from my previous post.

    To be honest, I didn't wanted the F-16 at first; the problem was Pakistan has it so they can predict our capability. Even if this production line shift, India will control the security clearance of new F-16. The sale of previous versions of F-16 (used ones) are still under US administration who will allow pakistan to buy to strike a balance. This negates all the advantage that F-16 brings to the table. But refer to my post "F16, Gripen - Make In India Single Engine Aircraft - News and possibilities" as to why it is the solution of my choice. I will go through your answer paragraph by paragraph below.

    F-16 is a solution from 70's and Gripen is from 80's. This is true but let me add two more aircraft to the mix so we understand the situation. First one is rafale, the french rafale is a 80's design which was developed frequently till 1991 (end of cold war) and then put on the back burner. The other one is LSA, it is based on HF-24 marut, 50's design. Here is your 'design based on year' argument.

    I would give you that F-16's when built at first were for a multi-purpose role and efficiency was not a major factor (or not oven one). In 1980's, US knew that delta wing was the future since the delta wing not only the deliver the efficiency (and its wing size) but also the stealth features that come with it. Not only F-16 XL but F-16 blk60 was to make use of delta wing to improve the added weight and efficiency of the platform. But no firm order from USAF and UAE being the last resort, the plans were dropped. The reason USAF is not procuring any more F-16's is that they have more than they need sitting in storage and secondly they don't fit in their policy of advanced warfare; F-35 has that spot.
     
    Sancho likes this.
  8. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2017
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    338
    Country Flag:
    India
    Total Numbers are the issue at the moment. Please find my comments inline.

    1. more MKI order to relieve some pressure
    They are air superiority aircraft. They are in need of upgrade themselves to compete for that role.
    2. 140 Jaguar to Darin 3 upgrade.
    We are upgrading them but that their airframe time is very less and limited before they become Mig-21. I see this as foolishness as we did with sea-harriers. Upgraded them and then kicked them out.
    3. Combat Hawk for CAS, which HAL can produce in large number quickly.
    Combat Hawk is not for india and they are just for the exports. I don't expect any orders from India. FYI they are very expensive. They are closer to Tejas in cost. Then why not use Tejas as LIFT.
    4. Few squardon of old Mirrage 2000.
    They are good but they are still limited
     
    layman likes this.
  9. zebra7

    zebra7 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    701
    Likes Received:
    652
    Country Flag:
    India
    Bakwas. Using F-16 for long time does not give all inside out information of the system. Only advantage for the PAF to acquire F-16 is the existing infrastructure and weapons thus lower cost of ownership, training and tactics developed by USAF over the period plus lower deployment and tactical strategies, which takes years.

    LSA is only the paper plane, so no comment. Development from 70's or 80's dosen't matter till the avionics and equipments are of the same level to do the job. The distintive advantage of Gripen is the concept on which it was made Modular design, low maintenance, quick turnaround for more sorties, and short take off capability. It had the advantage of the European tech. such as AESA MMR, Meteors long range BVR, and sensor fusion, but F-16 too got all those capabilities with the upgrade. The disadvantage of F-16 is future upgrade would be problem, since USAF have shifted toward F35.

    What is needed is to focus on the 5th Generation Air combat tactics to fight as a unit, for quick, short and decisive victory in short duration.

    LOL

    A Designer design the fighter plane for one role, and later on it ended on Multirole. Delta or tail wing dosen't matter because a fighter plane design is actually a compromise on something or other. Otherwise as per your argument, all fighter plane should be of same design.
     
  10. zebra7

    zebra7 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    701
    Likes Received:
    652
    Country Flag:
    India
    And what role does MKI cannot fulfill except DPSU, since the ones which are needed to be retired are MIG 21.

    Because the void is for the MIG 27 and MIG 23, for recce and ground attack. Jaguar Darin 3 is a good plane for ground attack, and still lot of life is remaining in its airframe, only problem is with the engine which is getting underpowered due to wt. added due to upgrade.

    They are expensive -- 15 million, if they are produced in large number, and check the production rate of the HAL for the Hawk, it could easily cross 36/year and all the jigs, tooling ready with the HAL.

    They are worth it, and there are few arabic country who want to sell it for rafale, and India have good relationship with them, plus Dassault won't have any problem I guess.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    9,415
    Likes Received:
    4,275
    There is license production, but it will start small. The follow on order of 36 will be assembled in India. I had always spoken of the possibility of 3 MMRCA jets for the IAF since 2015. A minimum number of Rafale enough to fit 5 squadrons, twin engine MII for 6 squadrons and single engine MII for 6 squadrons, apart from 6 squadrons of Tejas.

    But I also have the opinion that Rafale will win the TE MII.

    TE MII is necessary. It will be for newer and far more relevant versions of TE aircraft that will come up after the 36 Rafale we are buying now. And it will most likely favour Rafale. So this is far better than simply negotiating for the current variant for manufacturing which will hit our indigenous production lines only after 2025 anyway.

    So the idea is to buy some F3R Rafales for now, maybe assemble some, and then belt the F4 version on the production lines through the TE tender. In fact you can say the TE MII is simply an eyewash for a much larger Rafale deal.

    Regardless, Rafale, even in its current state, is going to create a lot of jobs. RDEL will create 1500 direct jobs and 7500 indirect job, subcontractors, within a 7 year period for Rafale. They will create production facilities for at least 50% of the value of the Rafale by then. So you can already see the kind of impact Rafale has created in India.

    EF has no relevance anymore. It got kicked out in 2012, that's the end of that.

    The helicopter tender wasn't a single vendor situation. Ka-226 and Fennec were shortlisted.

    Competition only comes up depending on the capability they have gained. We know today that Reliance Defence fell short of even making helicopters, a major reason why the Russians chose HAL for the Ka-226.
     
    zebra7 likes this.
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    15,032
    Likes Received:
    2,258
    Country Flag:
    United States
    Nothings changed the Rafale was obsolete in 2009 and its even more obsolete now and will be considered an antique by the time Indian has purchased all 36 Rafales.
     
  13. zebra7

    zebra7 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    701
    Likes Received:
    652
    Country Flag:
    India
    OOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK for your stupid comment.
     
  14. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    15,032
    Likes Received:
    2,258
    Country Flag:
    United States
    The unsurvivability, obsolescence, and uselessness of legacy aircraft

    Today, neither jamming nor anti-SAM missiles are effective measures any longer. Modern SAM systems have radars too powerful to be jammed, even with the Navy’s Next Generation Jammer (let alone the ALQ-99), and anti-SAM missiles such as the AGM-88 HARM can be easily shot down by point-defense counter-PGM systems such as the Tor-M1 and the Pantsir-S1, both of which have been exported globally and protect long-range anti-aircraft SAM systems, as well the latter systems themselves.

    This means that the only way to survive in any airspace defended by such systems is to be undetected, i.e. stealthy. This requires all-aspect, multi-band stealthy aircraft.

    4th generation air craft,, They will be be easily detected, even from a long range, by the radar of any air defense systems, even the most primitive ones such as the SA-2 and SA-3, and shot down mercilessly.

    Jammers might jam the radar of legacy SAM systems such as the SA-2 and SA-3, but not that of modern systems like the S-300, S-400, S-500, Tor-M1, Pantsir-S1, and HQ-9. Moreover, passive anti-radar homing missiles, even variants of the SA-2 and SA-3 missiles, can home on the emissions of American jammers and thus shoot the aircraft carrying those jammers down, as the Viets repeatedly did during the Vietnam War.

    The only Western aircraft which can survive and prevail in such airspace are the F-22, the B-2, and the planned Next Generation Bomber (if its designers follow stealth shaping rules).

    And before you ask: “what about counter-stealth radars?”, the fact is that such “counter-stealth radars” cannot detect the F-22 from more than 15 kms, and cannot detect stealthy bombers at all. Stealthy bombers are too large for “counter-stealth” radars’ wavelength (which is barely 2 meters for the best CS radar, the Nebo SVU; other CS radars have even smaller wavelength) to be detected, and the F-22 can easily stay out of the tiny detection envelope of such systems (with their 15 km radius) while still delivering its munitions to the target. And, with supercruise ability, it’s too fast for enemy SAMs to shoot down.

    But nonstealthy aircraft would be easily detected by both counterstealth and conventional radars from a long distance. Any airspace protected by any such radars is off-limits to them

    All American legacy aircraft (including the F-15, F-16, F/A-18, AV-8, B-52, and B-1), as well as Generation #4.5 European fighters such as the Typhoon, the Rafale, and the Gripen, stand zero chance of surviving in such airspace. They would be easily detected, even from a long range, by the radar of any air defense systems, even the most primitive ones such as the SA-2 and SA-3, and shot down mercilessly. https://zbigniewmazurak.wordpress.c...olescence-and-uselessness-of-legacy-aircraft/
     
  15. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    15,032
    Likes Received:
    2,258
    Country Flag:
    United States
    [​IMG]

    The latest generation of heatseeking dogfight missiles, typified by the Israeli Python (depicted), the ASRAAM, the AIM-9X and the Archer, have huge no-escape zones by traditional standards, are virtually impossible to defeat by manoeuvre, and have highly jam-resistant seekers. Whoever gets the first shot away is likely to kill his opponent. We can expect the next generation of such missiles to provide more range, speed, multi-mode seekers (anti-radiation, radar, heatseeking), and higher manoeuvrability, further enhancing lethality against conventional fighters. The only robust long term defensive measure is therefore stealth, which denies an opponent the opportunity to shoot first, and significantly impairs the seeker performance of any missile which is launched

    A conventional air superiority fighter with equal or better aerodynamic performance against a stealthy fighter is unlikely to get an opportunity to exploit that performance to its advantage. Performance can only be made use of where the opponent is seen and can therefore be manoeuvred against. An opponent unseen cannot be engaged

    A US observer commented some years ago that stealth was a "zero-sum game". There is only one winner in an air battle between a force of stealthy fighters and a force of conventional fighters. Stealth will rule the air battle.

    Fifty three years ago, Maj. Tommy McGuire, number two ranking USAAF Pacific fighter ace in WW 2, noted "It is always the one you don't see that gets you". With stealth, this is the fundamental truth.

    Critics of the F35 sound more like characters from "Alice in Wonderland" ! Indeed, there would be a simple resolution to this problem. Critics should strap into an Rafale air combat simulator and fly against another pilot in a simulated F-35. After they have "died" in ten or twenty consecutive engagements, then they should reconsider their position. Deedle, deedle, deedle, BANG
     

Share This Page