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India Doesn’t Require F-16s When it Has Tejas

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by layman, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    4th generation planes are obsolete. If you have F22s and F35s you can take out the air defenses both air and ground, other wise your just a target.
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Nope, all 36 fighters will be produced in France and send to India. The deal has no option clause, therefor any folow order would need to be negotiated completely new and Dassault already stated that a licence production in India would require an order for about 100 fighters.
    Offsets btw are diverted in part as consultancy service like in the Kaveri engine rivival, therefor hardly any jobs will be created, since there is nothing to produced in India.

    So apart from getting at least 36 Rafales, the deal so far is a disappointment.

    That's wrong, the EF was shortlisted together with the Rafale, but since Dassault had the lowest bid, exclusive negotiations were done only with them, which puts the EF partners on hold for that time.
    If you want to sell your car and you have two people that are interested, do you just take the first offer or do you check the 2nd one too?
    That's exactly what we could have done, when it was clear that the deal with Dassault it's not going anywhere, because of cost, ToT and guarantee issues. Either the EF partners could had provided us with an improved offer, or we could at least got some more leverage to talk with Dassault again.
    Sadly the government decided to scrap the tender and went for a government to government deal, that as said, hardly gave us advantages.

    It was, because just as in the Rafale case, it was a government to government deal, not a tender anymore!

    In August 2014 the government scrapped the LUH competition, that had shortlisted those 2 helicopters.
    In October they issued a new RFI under the buy and make India policy and Indian vendors teamed up with foreign counterparts (just checked, L&T teamed up with Eurocopter).
    In December 2014 President Putin visited India and offered the Kamov helicopters, which then were procured in a single vendor situation (again most likely a political deal).

    So as I said, the government had all the chances to actually make a competition and benefit privat industry, but didn't and with this history of scraping tenders and going for rather bad political deals, I wouldn't even be surprised if we see an F16 government to government deal.
     
    nair likes this.
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    And that's the crucial point! PAF knows this fighter, it's performance and flight characteristics and all available tactics fot years. IAF would need to learn from scratch and would be in disadvantage.
    More over we would be forced to fly with CFTs since they include the refuelling probe to use our tankers, which adds weight and drag and PAF pilots are good in dogfights with the F16.
    So apart from some techs and maybe weapons (depending on what the US allows us) we hardly have an operational advantage.
     
  4. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    TATA and L&T yes, Reliance > until I see some innovation, i am not convinced.
     
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  5. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Of course if India produced the F16 Pakistan only source of spare parts would be India, Pakistan F16s wont last forever.
     
  6. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    You are quoting my answer giving in different context. However, for IAF to check out the capabilities of the F16 Block 52 from Royal Singapore Airforce is much easier than guessing. But I believe its the dact excercise, and the tactics which IAF develop, keeping in mind to counter F-16 is more important. BTW CFT could be disassemble by the ground technicians easily. PAF is good in dog fighting, what for, and does IAF with superior flying hour practice is not capable in dog fighting -- BTW no sane pilot would like to indulge in the dogfighting, because in the multi-combat clash the chances of survival is less than 11%. My guess IAF would attain air superiority in Pakistani airspace in 1 week, and the biggest threat would be the SAM systems.
     
  7. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    LOL, forget F-16, no body in India is buying this idea. F-18 SH have more chances than F-16 if any.
     
  8. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Both these planes needs U.S satellite, network, database, maps, and Mission program, for which they need to be connected to the U.S Server, which Indian Airforce won't agree. So tada since to use its full capability, we have to join US partner program, and deals like BECA, CISMOA.

    Any why should we buy U.S 5th Generation Aircraft, when India is already committed for FGFA, which have 360 degree situation awareness, which even F22 don't possess.
     
  9. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    By when do you think, we will have the FGFA/PMF/T-50/PAK-FA (or whatever they are calling it these days)

    Is there any scope of a DECENT ToT...!?

    I am not against the Russians or the Americans....My point is that we are already out of time...And still we are dragging our feet....We expect a certain degree of ToT... Which is very difficult to achieve....


    The Chinese already have a stealth platform in service (Limited Service as of now with new jets in LRIP)....And I believe by the time we get our first squadron...They will have 8-10 squadrons fully equipped and their pilots well prepared and well acquainted with the plane, tactics, related support equipment and ground crew fully prepared with the platform matured.

    My point is.... Whatever we do...Let's do it quick....And the current scenario is definitely not quick....


    AMCA is just a pipe dream....Let's not even talk about it for a decade or so. This time I won't get my hopes up... Atleast until they get an IOC....2030-2035 I guess....
     
  10. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    My biggest hope is on Reliance now, for fighter jets. They have the funds and the infrastructure. In about a decade, they should be able to compete with HAL in every sector when it comes to production.
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I'm talking about the follow on 36 after the first 36+18 are delivered.

    MMRCA is old and has become irrelevant. Hence EF has also become irrelevant. If it wants to become relevant again, it will have to bid again in the new tender.

    All future tenders will go exactly how Rafale and Ka-226 went.

    The tender will be used to choose the best and cheapest jet and then the tender will then be cancelled and GTG for the winning bid will be initiated.
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    =>
    http://www.thehindu.com/news/Rafale-deal-welcome-but-fleet-small-Experts/article14997685.ece

    We are not talking about the fighter, but about competition and the Modi government NOT using it for the benefit of Indian forces.

    :D That would be hilarious, because then they would scrap more tenders than Antony did, but again scraping a tender and going for G2G deals is not increasing competition as you stated before. You can't have it both ways mate, either the PM is for privat sector and competition or he isn't.
     
  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    That's to train our pilots against that fighter, here we need to train them for the F16, which as you correctly pointed out, will require years.
    PAF on the other hand knows the fighter and only would need to train tactics to avoid the advantage of the techs the advanced F16 offers. There were reports of IAF officials earlier, which constantly were against F16 because of the advantage PAF has. Will see if I can find them.

    Yes, but in our case they wouldn't because they are no option, but a necessity!

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    As you can see, without the CFTs, they wouldn't be compatible to IAFs tankers, therefor they need to fly with them all the time, no matter which role and that increases weight and drag especially in dog fights.

    You hardly have a choice in the Indo Pak scenario, since some air bases are that close to each other.
     
  14. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Nope, since the bulk of their fighters already are going through MLU, the next possible upgrade will only include AESA radar, avionics and weapons, which all have nothing to do with Indias possible production line. By the time India might get the sole source for spares, PAF will have moved on.
     
  15. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Russia just cut its defense budget 25 percent, after a 5 percent cut last year, they already announced they did not have either the funds or technology to develop the PAK FA, then suddenly with some money from India available they changed their mind. I doubt if you going to see much from Russia on the PAK FA. India is being scammed.
     

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