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India draws bottom line for Rafale

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tusharm, Apr 7, 2015.

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  1. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    True for a plane where the technology is 30 years old, Rafale is part of the joint European venture the French bailed on 30 years ago.

    Back in August 1985, European air forces and national industrial heavyweights failed to agree on a common request for a next-generation combat aircraft. The U.K., France and Germany vied for the prime contractor role, while a fierce battle between engine manufacturers Snecma and Rolls-Royce played out. The end result was the launch of the Eurofighter Typhoon and the French ACX, later dubbed Rafale.

    Egypt In the absence of any export orders more than 15 years after the Rafale’s service entry with the French air force and navy, France was ready to offer some concessions, but not on price; evidently no technology transfer agreement seems to be involved. The rapidly negotiated agreement came about for more complex reasons. After years of trying to snare a foreign buyer, the Rafale has finally accomplished that aim.

    Can you remember 1995 when 8 megabytes memory cost 800 dollars and was what was normal on a Personal PC compared today 4000 megabytes.

    A hard drive in 1995 had 400 to 1000 megabytes, today half million to a million. Planes produced 20 years ago,, and designed 30 years ago may be sufficient today in some cases, but its not likely to be ten years from now.
     
  2. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Lesser and lesser than Gripen contract in Brazil. The total price of a contract have nothing to do with the fly away cost of a plane: the fly away cost of Rafale was $ 85 million when it was declared L1 and is now 73 Million due to € decrease against $.
     
  3. SpArK

    SpArK SorCeroR Staff Member ADMINISTRATOR

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    Average IQ is not a pre requisite for aviation industry.

    HAL would be having almost 90% + staff having more IQ than you yourself.
     
  4. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Even after our tech demonstration of Mars Mission, Missiles and contribution to your software and computer tech, do you think that Indians have low IQ? How can it be possible that a low IQ man becomes highest IQ guy in US? does this not mean that nearly everyone in US has IQ far below that of Indians who go to US?
    I can agree about lack of technology within India but to say that we have defunct mental faculties is grossly wrong. Let me challenge you here. wait for couple of years, we will show US and the world how good we are in aviation tech. We don't need Rafale today as within two years we will have no reason to buy it.
     
  5. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Your logic needs to be upgraded. Just for example: do you think that the Rafale AESA Radar was designed 30 years ago and use a 8 megabytes memory? By the way 1995 is also the time where the F-35 was designed.
     
  6. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    RE: RAFALE READ THIS
    India draws bottom line for Rafale | Page 9 | Indian Defence Forum

    And as for my Avataar, I don't really care what you say, you are a french hiding in American closet and waving an American flag with French flag undies. Whatever Peiper did, he did it, so what the hell, I love him, if you got a problem you can complaint to the Mods, or you can just go to some other forum. Dont bring personal slander here,
     
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Building an manufacturing a 5th generation stealth aircraft is more complicated then going to the moon.
     
  8. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Concurrency
    The F-35 program, like many fighter programs, includes an overlap of flight test and initial production known as concurrency. Concurrency allows for a steady production and supply chain pace and faster delivery of the F-35 to the warfighter.
    Because of concurrency, early production aircraft require some retrofits to implement changes based on flight test discoveries. As the flight test program matures, the risk of new discoveries declines. As risk declines, fewer retrofits are required in later production lots. In June 2013, Department of Defense concurrency cost estimates dropped by $500 million for the first five production lots due to more accurate estimating methods and proactive efforts to make updates more efficient.
    Lockheed Martin and the F-35 Joint Program Office share concurrency costs through the first four production lots. Beginning with Low Rate Initial Production Lot 5, Lockheed Martin took on a greater share of known concurrency costs.

    Concurrency
    The F-35 program, like many fighter programs, includes an overlap of flight test and initial production known as concurrency. Concurrency allows for a steady production and supply chain pace and faster delivery of the F-35 to the warfighter.
    Because of concurrency, early production aircraft require some retrofits to implement changes based on flight test discoveries. As the flight test program matures, the risk of new discoveries declines. As risk declines, fewer retrofits are required in later production lots. In June 2013, Department of Defense concurrency cost estimates dropped by $500 million for the first five production lots due to more accurate estimating methods and proactive efforts to make updates more efficient.
    Lockheed Martin and the F-35 Joint Program Office share concurrency costs through the first four production lots. Beginning with Low Rate Initial Production Lot 5, Lockheed Martin took on a greater share of known concurrency costs.

    An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million in today’s dollars.
     
  9. Picdelamirand-oil

    Picdelamirand-oil Lt. Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    It's easy to have cost estimate dropping, I'm waiting to see real cost to drop.
     
  10. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Does not really matter at this point, its the plane of the future. What will harm the F35 most is Russia bailing out on 5th generation planes, no competition out there.
     
  11. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Suspense over Rafale deal continues as Narendra Modi is set to visit France
    Published April 8, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE : PTI

    [​IMG]

    Suspense continued on Tuesday over whether the issue of Rafale fighter deal, which has been stuck over cost, will figure in talks that Prime Minister Narendra Modi will have with French President Francois Hollande during his visit beginning on Thursday.

    French Ambassador Francois Richier, while addressing a press conference here on Modi’s visit, was evasive to questions over the multi-billion dollar deal, which has been held up for long. However, sources said, “negotiations are on” for the deal under which French company Dassault Aviation will supply 126 Rafale fighter planes.

    Richier said French companies, including those in the field of defence, are keen to participate in the ‘Make in India’ programme and the fate of Rafale deal will be a key element in this. Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.

    Indian government officials say that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the Indian officials say, has put the price at a “little more than double the cost”.

    India is insisting that Dassault Aviation cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

    Even at political level, India has categorically told the French side that it must stick to the RFP, in which Dassault was the lowest bidder and hence was selected for the contract. “The ball is in France’s court,” an Indian official had said sometime back.

    The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only two left in the race for 126 fighter plane deal after years of tests on technical and other aspects. Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

    As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). According to the sources, Dassault was reluctant to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production were concerned.

    The Indian Defence Ministry is of the view that the guarantee clause was part of the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) under the RFP. Dassault had agreed to the ASQR and hence was selected for the deal, the sources maintained. “How can the ASQR be relaxed? This is not allowed under the Defence Procurement Procedure, 2013,” the sources said.

    However, French authorities insist otherwise. Talking about the price and guarantee clause, the sources said all this takes place within the Indian Defence procurement procedure. “At the conclusion of the competition, the Rafale was selected and its competitors eliminated on the basis of technical/operational assessment and on the basis of price,” they said.

    During his talks in France, Modi is expected to refer to his government’s ambitious plan of creating 100 ‘smart cities’ across India and invite French participation. The French Ambassador said his country will see how it can contribute to this endeavour. He said France has expertise in building new cities while preserving the heritage.

    Modi will be visiting one of the ‘smart cities’ of France during his visit. The two sides are also expected to discuss cooperation in the field of technology, including space. A new programme of cooperation in the field of space is likely to be signed during the visit. Under it, India will launch French satellites while Indian satellites can be launched from France.

    French companies are also keen to enter the Small and Medium Enterprises (SME) market of India as part of “rebalancing” the trade. During his visit, Modi will meet the business leaders of France besides the political leadership. He will also visit the Airbus manufacturing base.

    He will also visit a memorial set up for Indian soldiers who died while fighting with France in World War-I against Germany. 9,000 of them had died in that war and Modi will pay homage to them.
     
  12. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
    An invite by the Municipal Corporation of Chandigarh for the wreath laying ceremony at Martyrs' Pillar. The same image showing American soldiers appeared in the hoardings
     
  13. tusharm

    tusharm Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Its good that Admins are removing wrong posts from this forum.

    I expect the same when someone start bashing our country for no reason.
     
  14. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    India Prime Minister to Discuss Rafale Fighter Jet Deal During France Visit
    Published April 8, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE : Sputnik

    [​IMG]

    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is set to discuss a long-disputed deal to buy Rafale fighter jets during his visit to France scheduled for April 10-11, France’s Ambassador to India Francois Richier told Sputnik Tuesday.

    “Only thing I can say on Rafale is that the deal is on. Rafale deal will be on the agenda of talks during Indian Prime Minister Modi’s visit to France,” Richier said.

    The diplomat declined to give any further details.

    Earlier, Indian media reported that New Delhi might pull out of the $20-billion deal with the French Dassault Aviation Company on an acquisition of 126 Rafale fighters.

    In 2012 the Dassault Aviation won a bid to supply 126 Rafale fighter jets to India but the purchase was delayed over high costs and the company’s refusal to guarantee the performance of Rafales produced in India.

    Russian and British fighter jets have been tipped as a possible replacement for the Rafale jets if the deal should be scrapped.
     
  15. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    With Rafale deal stuck, Germany says Eurofighter option ready
    Published April 8, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE: PTI

    [​IMG]

    Days ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit there, Germany on Wednesday said European military consortium EADS was still ready to provide India Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, asserting that the jets are “good” both in terms of quality and price.

    India has been in negotiations for last three years with France’s Dassault Aviation for procurement of 126 Rafale jets, which is being considered world’s biggest military aircraft deal.

    German Ambassador Michael Steiner said the European Aeronautic Defence and Space (EADS) was ready with its proposal to offer Eurofighter to India.

    “The consortium stands ready with their proposal. The governments of the four nations are supporting this proposal because they are convinced it is a good one both in terms of quality of the product and price,” he told reporters.

    At the same time, he said the consortium will continue to respect the Indian procurement procedures and it was for India to decide what kind of aircraft it wants to procure.

    Prime Minister Modi and German Chancellor Angela Merkel will jointly inaugurate the Hannover Messe fair on April 12. India is the partner country for the famous fair this year.

    Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only two defence majors left in the race for 126 plane-deal after years of tests on technical and other aspects.

    Modi is also visiting France but it is not clear whether the Rafale deal would figure during his talks with French President Francois Hollande.

    The deal with Dassault Aviation has been stuck for the last three years on cost and guarantee clause. Indian government officials say that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now.

    Under the guarantee clause Rafale has to provide guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.
     
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