Dismiss Notice
Welcome to IDF- Indian Defence Forum , register for free to join this friendly community of defence enthusiastic from around the world. Make your opinion heard and appreciated.

India draws bottom line for Rafale

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by tusharm, Apr 7, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,186
    Likes Received:
    903
    No Breakthrough Yet on Rafale Deal – Indian Foreign Ministry
    Published April 8, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE : SPUTNIK

    [​IMG]

    India remains undecided on whether to go ahead with its planned purchase of France’s Rafale fighter jets, Foreign Secretary Subrahmanyam Jaishankar told reporters on Wednesday.“As far as I understand it, discussions between the French company, our defense ministry and HAL Company continue… The sides are discussing the technical aspects of the matter. We are differentiating between state visits and a detailed discussion of defense contracts,” the diplomat said.

    India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi is heading to France Thursday on a three-day visit to meet with President Francois Hollande to discuss a range of infrastructure and defense cooperation issues with French company executives and visit an Airbus plant in Toulouse.

    New Delhi earlier urged France to revise its final asking price for the 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

    The multi-billion dollar contract continues to be stuck in the doldrums with several local media outlets reporting that India could pull out of a deal with France’s Dassault Aviation for the purchase of the 126 Rafale multirole fighter aircraft and go instead for Russian-designed Su-30s, which are reliable and cheaper.

    Reasons cited by Indian media outlets included France’s reluctance to pass on technologies to the Indian side and an increase in the price of the jets, which recently jumped to $20 billion from the initial $12 billion.
     
  2. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,186
    Likes Received:
    903
    Modi says progress possible in Rafale fighter jet talks
    Published April 9, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE: Reuters

    [​IMG]

    India and France should be able to make progress in talks over the purchase of Rafale fighter jets, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in an interview with French newspaper Le Figaro.

    “The question of the Rafales is still in discussion and we should be able to make progress on mutually acceptable bases,” Modi told the newspaper ahead his arrival on Thursday in France for a state visit.

    Talks on the proposed purchase of 126 Rafale planes have been under way for more than three years, trying to resolve differences over pricing and local assembly.
     
  3. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,186
    Likes Received:
    903
    Sale of Su-35 jets to China delayed by price objections
    Published April 9, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE : WANTCHINA TIMES

    [​IMG]

    Russia’s sale of 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighters to China may be postponed because the PLA Air Force feels the price is too high, according to Duowei News, an outlet operated by overseas Chinese.

    Xu Yongling, a retired officer of the PLA Air Force, complained about the attitude of the Russian delegation on his Weibo microblog. “Those Russians are crazy for money, the only thing they are thinking about is to extort China,” Xu said. “However, they have miscalculated this time because China no longer needs their technology any more and they will absolutely suffer from this price war.”

    The Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation was the first Russian government agency to confirm that Beijing and Moscow are discussing the sale of the Su-35 to China. Earlier reports indicated that China originally wanted only four Su-35s to gain the technology it needs to design engine for its advanced fighter program in the future. Russia wanted China to purchase 48 aircraft instead, not only to make more money but also out of concerns that China would back engineer the aircraft to make its own version, as has happened in the past.

    In November 2012, an agreement was finally reached for China to purchase 24 Su-35 fighters. The Su-35 was demonstrated at the Zhuhai Airshow in Guangdong late last year.

    Dmitry Rogozin, the Russian deputy prime minister, claimed that the contract would be signed in December. However, Alexander Fomin, the director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, confirmed that the contract has not yet been signed as of March 27.

    Unconfirmed reports suggest that the Russian side raised objections during the negotiations. While Beijing wanted Sukhoi to design a tailored version of the Su-35, Moscow insisted on providing a standard model for the initial deliveries. Meanwhile, Russia also agreed to work with India, a rival and potential enemy for China, to jointly develop a new version of the aircraft. This may be another reason for the delay in the sale to China.
     
  4. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,186
    Likes Received:
    903
    With Modi arriving on visit, India, France set to push Rafale deal
    Published April 10, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE: Hindustan Times

    [​IMG]



    India is considering direct purchase of two squadrons of the French Rafale fighter plane to avoid the mire of price negotiations that the deal for 126 of these aircraft has been stuck in since January 2012.

    The Dassault-manufactured Rafale fighter was on January 31, 2012 announced as the preferred bidder in the $13-billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). India is now seriously considering strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafales for the Indian Air Force (IAF) through the government-to-government (G2G) route on account of operational necessity. The tentative price tag of this deal would be over $4 billion.

    New Delhi and Paris remain silent on the new proposal.

    But, a senior official involved in the deal says the decision to bypass the 2004 MMRCA tender route – on the basis of which Rafale emerged in the lead – was taken as both Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) were unable to bridge price differences arising out of original request for proposals (RFP).

    “After detailed analysis of the RFP and the laborious process followed by the previous government, it was evident that the entire deal could not be worked out with serious discrepancies in the negotiations that could lead to litigation in future,” said a senior official.

    The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.

    With the NDA government not willing to let the IAF fighter squadron strength dip into the critical zone in coming years, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President François Hollande will on Friday discuss ways to clinch the Rafale deal. “If the French company is willing to lower the price per aircraft due to recovery of development costs on missiles, ammunition and sale to other countries, then India could go for outright purchase of the 4.5 generation fighter through the French government route. The deal could be negotiated and signed in 2015 itself but numbers to be purchased depend on offered price. India has purchased the Lockheed Martin C-130 J Super Hercules, Boeing C-17 Globemaster and P-8I Poseidon aircraft from the US on the basis of strategic requirement and operational necessity through the G2G route,” a senior official told Hindustan Times.

    The IAF’s sanctioned strength is 42 squadrons but it is

    currently operating only 34 with the Russian-origin Sukhoi 30 MKI being the teeth and the Soviet-era MiG-21 forming the long tail. Given the serviceability, repair and upgrade of these fighters and that eight MiG-21 squadrons are to be phased out in the next eight years, the IAF is set to be heavily depleted. It is in this context that the Modi government plans to have two or three Rafale squadrons to spearhead the IAF with the indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) replacing the MiG-21 in coming years.

    The French government is expected to join the ‘Make in India’ initiative with an offer of two or three top defence technologies, and New Delhi is not adverse to Dassault floating a joint venture with a private company to build more Rafales in India. Similar offers of building fighters in India will also be made to other MMRCA competitors like the Saab Grippen, Boeing F-18, EADS Eurofighter, Russian MiG-35 and Lockheed Martin F-16 so that the IAF dominates the evolving security scenario in Asia.
     
  5. Paliwal Warrior

    Paliwal Warrior Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,186
    Likes Received:
    903
    Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely
    Published April 10, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE: Nitin A. Gokhale / nitinagokhale.blogspot.in

    [​IMG]

    India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.

    The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.

    The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.

    According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons: one, it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and two, because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.

    India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.

    The government’s drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF’s falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.
     
  6. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    13,790
    Likes Received:
    15,448
    Country Flag:
    India
    @Picdelamirand-oil, @halloweene, Keep the bubbly ready for me. Did I not tell you guys that it will be better for India to buy 72 Rafale off the shelf from French line and drop the option of building these aircraft in India. It is better for India to invest in assembly line of LCA rather than that of Rafale.
    Now one more prediction from me.
    The total "off the shelf" numbers can rise to 90 aircraft for five sqns to replace Mig-27s of IAF. In addition there can be an order by IN for Rafal- M if you do not show similar stupidity as the MMRCA tender. Get the price correct and you will have full 126 (90+46) aircraft order-Made in France.
    DA has enough room to drop price now as being a G2G deal, there will be no "Offset Clause" in it.
    The downside of the deal is-If DA does not give the right price, the deal can go to Typhoon or the Russians as the MMRCA tender itself will now get scrapped. The game starts all over again.
     
    Picard, Zeus_@21 and Big Pic like this.
  7. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    15,359
    Likes Received:
    2,378
    Country Flag:
    United States
    India aims to agree $8 bn buy of 63 Rafale jets: Report
    Reuters Paris, April 10, 2015 | UPDATED 16:33 IST
    India was aiming to agree a deal to buy 63 French-made Rafale fighter jets for 7.2 billion euros ($7.7 billion) during the Prime minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris starting, Le Monde newspaper reported.
    Indian officials confirmed that a major push was on to reach an agreement to buy Rafales during Modi's visit to Paris, with one holding out the prospect of an announcement - if not a final deal - if India is able to secure more favourable terms.
    Talks have been going on for more than three years over how to resolve differences over pricing and local assembly.
    "The discussions went on through the night and were still going on this morning," Le Monde quoted a source close to the matter as saying.
    Advertisement: Replay Ad
    [​IMG]


    "The idea is to announce the contract during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday or Saturday," the source said.
    Neither Dassault Aviation, which builds the Rafale, nor the French president's office could be reached for comment. The French defence ministry declined to comment.
    The Hindustan Times and a widely watched defence blogger said that a direct government-to-government contract to buy a smaller number of planes than the 126 originally envisaged under a tender deal was one possible outcome because of problems linked to localising production of most of the planes in India.
    Blogger Nitin Ghokale said the talks focused on buying between 60 and 63 jets.
    One Indian official, who requested anonymity, said, "It's correct that discussions are under way, but a contract announcement is a bit of hype."
    "If things work out and terms are more attractive than earlier, then maybe an understanding."
    A source at the Indian defence ministry said that a "serious effort" was under way by both sides to reach a solution.
    Modi, who in an interview on April 8 said the two countries should be able to make progress in talks on the Rafale, is in France for a two-day state visit. There is due to be a signing ceremony for various contracts late on Friday and a joint news conference with President Francois Hollande at 1800 (1600 GMT).
    The original Rafale contract was worth $12 billion but was widely estimated to have increased to $20 billion, primarily because of the implications of building some of the jets in India. It is not clear how the Paris talks fit into that deal.
    Analysts say Dassault's Rafale deal with Egypt in February may have helped break the logjam in negotiations with other customers since they are now on notice that if they want to have the Rafale they may have to wait for it.
    India's military says it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017.

    That's 127 million per plane.
     
  8. jonas

    jonas Captain SENIOR MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    1,945
    Likes Received:
    541
    Guess what here's another story on the deal.

    With Modi Arriving On Visit, India, France Set to Push Rafale Deal
    (Source: Hindustan Times; published Apr 10, 2015)
    NEW DELHI --- India is considering a direct purchase of two squadrons of the French Rafale fighter plane to avoid the mire of price negotiations that the deal for 126 of these aircraft has been stuck in since January 2012.

    The Dassault-manufactured Rafale fighter was on January 31, 2012 announced as the preferred bidder in the $13-billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). India is now seriously considering strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafales for the Indian Air Force (IAF) through the government-to-government (G2G) route on account of operational necessity. The tentative price tag of this deal would be over $4 billion.

    New Delhi and Paris remain silent on the new proposal.

    But, a senior official involved in the deal says the decision to bypass the 2004 MMRCA tender route - on the basis of which Rafale emerged in the lead - was taken as both Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) were unable to bridge price differences arising out of original request for proposals (RFP).

    "After detailed analysis of the RFP and the laborious process followed by the previous government, it was evident that the entire deal could not be worked out with serious discrepancies in the negotiations that could lead to litigation in future," said a senior official.

    The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.

    With the NDA government not willing to let the IAF fighter squadron strength dip into the critical zone in coming years, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President François Hollande will on Friday discuss ways to clinch the Rafale deal.

    "If the French company is willing to lower the price per aircraft due to recovery of development costs on missiles, ammunition and sale to other countries, then India could go for outright purchase of the 4.5 generation fighter through the French government route. The deal could be negotiated and signed in 2015 itself but numbers to be purchased depend on offered price. India has purchased the Lockheed Martin C-130 J Super Hercules, Boeing C-17 Globemaster and P-8I Poseidon aircraft from the US on the basis of strategic requirement and operational necessity through the G2G route," a senior official told Hindustan Times.

    The IAF's sanctioned strength is 42 squadrons but it is currently operating only 34 with the Russian-origin Sukhoi 30 MKI being the teeth and the Soviet-era MiG-21 forming the long tail. Given the serviceability, repair and upgrade of these fighters and that eight MiG-21 squadrons are to be phased out in the next eight years, the IAF is set to be heavily depleted. It is in this context that the Modi government plans to have two or three Rafale squadrons to spearhead the IAF with the indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) replacing the MiG-21 in coming years.

    The French government is expected to join the 'Make in India' initiative with an offer of two or three top defence technologies, and New Delhi is not adverse to Dassault floating a joint venture with a private company to build more Rafales in India. Similar offers of building fighters in India will also be made to other MMRCA competitors like the Saab Gripen, Boeing F-18, EADS Eurofighter, Russian MiG-35 and Lockheed Martin F-16 so that the IAF dominates the evolving security scenario in Asia.


    (EDITOR’S NOTE: If confirmed, a direct purchase by India would resolve most of the bottlenecks that have blocked contract negotiations over the past three years, and which mostly focus on the price of the 108 Indian-made aircraft and on who would provide their contractual warranty.

    The fundamental problem, however, is that by codifying and closely regulating as many aspects of defense procurement as it could, India’s previous government created a web of red tape so complex and so arcane that mutually-acceptable defense deals have become virtually impossible.

    Another – and so far unsaid - factor is that HAL’s work-force is not yet capable of assembling aircraft as advanced as Rafale, and the Indian government appears to have realized that it was insisting on an expensive and time-consuming industrial fantasy that it would probably be unable to implement in the short term.

    Coincidentally, Reuters today reported on this very issue.

    A direct purchase would elegantly sidestep thorny coproduction issues, give India fixed, firm prices guaranteed by the French government, and relieve the current pressure to conclude a license production agreement that suits neither side.

    Possibly even more importantly, it is an ideal way out of the continuing impasse because it saves everyone’s face and assigns no blame. In fact, it has no down side.

    Finally, a direct purchase of 40 Rafales would remain within the original parameters of the MMRCA program. Originally, India wanted to buy 18 fighters off the shelf and assemble another 108 in-country, with an option on 63 more, for a total of 189. This latest plan, if confirmed, simply brings forward most of the optional batch, leaving the remaining 150-odd to be procured at some later, and more opportune, time.)


    -ends-
    With Modi Arriving On Visit, India, France Set to Push Rafale Deal

    It should have said ' leaving the remaining 150-odd to be procured at some later, and more opportune,time. Or Never :eek:

    Posted to include the editors note, before anyone says it's a double post.
     
  9. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    15,359
    Likes Received:
    2,378
    Country Flag:
    United States
    Sounds like kicking the can on down the road, again.
    If the Rafale was a car it would already be old enough be called a classic, by the time its produced we would call it an antique.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page