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India eyes Russian S-400 Triumf + associated news

Discussion in 'Indian Military Doctrine' started by arulcharles, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    The ships will be built for Russian specifications. They will end up with too many problems and will cost too much, the Gorky story will repeat. We have no obligation to pay for their f*ckups. It will be cheaper and better to build new ships.
     
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  2. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Pipavav will replicate surely..
    take it with surety it will see repeat orders of this ship design with newer upgrade.. By the time this gets executed 2+2 structure , the next set of 3 will most likely see the hypersonic coverage and perhaps see integration of some other SAM complex (in case B8 can be integrated or something else)

    The beauty is the plan of 6 SSN + 2 on lease and 1 more under plan makes me feel at least 6 will be available anytime... may be more too.. the follow on 6 more SSN will mean at least 4 more will be available all the time.. 10 SSN out of 15 kind of means 5 CBGs with each CBG having 2 SSN.

    Now its ambitious but clearly going as per the plan.. Now we know 1 Vikramaditya, 2- IAC-1 and 2 IAC-2 and one more carrier at standby...

    Did we subtly just witnessed the blue print out...???

    If yes, can anyone imagine the quantum of salivating mouth moment for Dassault - Rafale M?
     
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  3. seiko

    seiko VETERAN ELITE MEMBER

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    Forget Dassault, talk about our salivating mouth :yey:

    But is this 6 SSN means death of Project 75 I?
     
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  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    A CBG needs only 1 SSN. Using more is a waste of resources.

    We still need diesel electric subs. They are better than SSNs in shallow waters. Look at the Arabian Sea on Google Earth.
     
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  5. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Crossposting from PDF where i posted a long take about a month plus back.. some excerpts.. Again apologies in advance at this will deviate from the main topic.

    The internal plan of Indian navy for 2030 clearly states that IN will have a fleet of 30 SSKs out of which 24 will be outright modern submarines.

    The line mix planned was initially
    P 75- 6 subs
    P 75I - 6 Subs
    Indigenous SSK - 12 subs.

    Below are few excerpts from Indian Navy dox. :wave:

    [​IMG]

    looking at the present status of P75I and Indigenous SSK design being not finalised, the proposal has changed to

    P75 - 6+3+3 ~ 9-12
    P75I - 6+3+3~ 6-12
    indigenous SSK - 3+3+3+3~ 3-6~9-12

    The reasoning for 10-12 submarine order point is below

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    Some serious points
    • There are serious question raised recently in April 2016 when all this talk started going very serious.
    • First thing, the indigenous designed SSK needs to be in one of the two lines made for submarines in India.
    • As of now only MDL has two lines available out of which second assembling line has parallel capacity to produce 5 submarines all at once.
    • There is no other public or private sector which has been identified as of now by MOD/GOI whom it has indicated to go for such a technology absorption as no new tender and order has been given till date
    • This is the tale tell sign of SSK not matured enough for an urgent need for a new line space nor P75I being close to tender process.
    Now why more scorpenes (form the same IN dox)

    • Scorpene submarine is constructed by joining five sections.
    • The construction process starts with the fabrication of ring frames, followed by plate forming.
    • Further, they are assembled into sub sections which in turn form the 5 major sections of the submarine.
    • While the sections are being manufactured, a parallel activity of outfitting of cradles with equipment is progressed.
    • Thereafter, the cradles are shipped inside the sections.
    • Further, the sections are lowered onto the submarine launch pontoon in dry dock followed by the boot together which is the joining of the last two sections completing the submarine construction.
    • A schematic representation of the same and photographs of cardinal activities are given below
    [​IMG]

    +++
    The figure below is the POV which is very clear why a extended line is important

    [​IMG]

    So we cant neglect P75I but if we can replace the P75I with super scorpenes or Conventional barracuda, nothing like it..
     
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  6. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    Prasun K Sengupta's reply to another awesome guy - Austin

    Both Malakhit & RUBIN were present at DEFEXPO 2016 & I had extensive discussions with some of my old acquaintances working with them, & also with officials of L & T & TATA Power SED. Internet fanboys will take solace from prevailing assumptions about Malakhit being involved with SSNs. In reality, Malakhit is involved 100% with SSGNs, especially design work on replacements for Project 971 Shchuka-B (NATO: Akula), the Project 945 Sierra and the Project 949A Oscar II-class. RUBIN is responsible for SSBNs & SSNs & was nominated 5 years ago as the nodal design authority fior the fifth-generation SSN that will take the place of Project 671RTM Shchuka-class SSNs. And that’s because RUBIN had no other work to do in the arena of SSKs after the failure of the Amur 1650 SSK project & therefore it was entrusted the task of developing the new-generation SSN under the project name BELOUGA.

    As for the S-500 Prometey or 55R6M Triumfator-M, Almaz-Antey JSC said both at MAKS 2015 & DEFEXPO 2016 that just as the S-400 can use 3 different types of LR-SAMs that are also used by existing S-300PMU family of LR-SAMs, the S-400 will also be able to use the 77N6-N and 77N6-NI
    missiles for intercepting MIRV-equipped MRBMs. The S-400’s existing PESA-based 91N6E & 92N6E radars are only good for tracking & engaging non-manoeuvring SRBMs, TBMs & IRBMs, while the 77N6-N and 77N6-NI missiles will be aided by multifunction APARs & will not require either two separate radars as is the case with the S-300 & S-400 families, nor will any pole-mounted target illuminator be reqd (like the ones used by the S-300V & Antey V2500). Hence, if the S-400 is to be used with the 77N6-N and 77N6-NI missiles, a separate APAR will be reqd & this is where the EL/M-2090 UHF LRTR comes in & that’s where the Russians have proposed to help the DRDO achieve the necessary systems integration. The S-500 will use a Russian X-band APAR that will NEVER be exported to anyone.

    October 15, 2016 at 8:08 PM

    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=4488037546852980017&bpli=1&pli=1
     
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  7. Tejpal

    Tejpal Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    What's the S-400 range for India? I've heard it's only going to be 120KM...
     
  8. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Barak 8 has 120km range, so Will definitely lot more than that..
     
  9. Inactive

    Inactive Guest

    I think there won't be a follow on in horizon for 6 more SSNs. It shall be 06 + 02 lease and 06 SSBN. 04 LPDs on scale of INS Jalashwa are already in various stages of construction. Or is it 6?:close_tema:
     
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  10. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    This plan was amended last year. Its now 18 SSKs + 6 SSN.
    Indigenous SSK is Project 76.

    Any idea about talwar class deal numbers?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
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  11. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    Like i said :

    “We will then start preparing the contracts and I hope that in the first half of 2017 we will complete and sign these contracts and the production will start. I believe the delivery will begin somewhere in 2020,”
    he added.

    https://www.rt.com/news/362880-india-russia-missile-shipment/
     
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  12. Sathya

    Sathya Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Mig 35 or Su 35 were told to cost 20-25 million $ because of weak Ruble..

    Why would a frigate cost 1 billion $ ?

    Shouldn't it be around 350 million $ or so ? Does it indicate frigate cost around 2-3 billion $ , because of weak Ruble we are getting it for 1 billion?
     
  13. PARIKRAMA

    PARIKRAMA Captain IDF NewBie

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    @Hellfire
    What happened to Shtorm.. is it postponed to Dec?
     
  14. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    The S-400 is not a single missile - it's an air defence system that comprises of up to half a dozen different missile types which can be launched from the same canisters, using the same network of early-warning & target-acquisition radars.

    [​IMG]

    A maximum range of 120km (as per whoever told you that) would imply that the 9M96E2 is the farthest-ranged round that we're going to acquire - but given the nature of the deal (5 battalions for critical, strategic sectors), it's clear that the principle role for the systems will be ballistic missile defence. And the 9M96E does not have any BMD capabilities. Furthermore, the longest-ranged missile we can acquire this side of the 300km mark is the 48N6 series (250km). What your source seems to say doesn't add up.

    I'm pretty certain that the full range envelope of the missiles will be available - that means the 40N6 series (400km) & the 48N6 series (250km), which will be useful for BMD, and for intercepting high-flying widebody targets such as enemy AEWs, tankers, bombers etc., as well as the medium-range 9M96 series (120km for E2), which are designed for going after fast, agile aircraft like jet fighters...and also inbound cruise missiles.

    Furthermore, Prasun Sengupta's statements indicate that the future 77N6 and 77N6-N1 missiles, designed to be capable of intercepting ICBM-class missiles, will be integrated into the Indian S-400 system at a later date.

    As of MTCR, well, at any date it's not & cannot be a binding treaty - the body has no power to veto a decision by one of the member countries to supply any 300km+ missiles/UAVs to other members of the regime, or to outside parties. The decision to not do so only garners goodwill. Also, the SAM being a defensive system by nature is not likely to ruffle as many feathers as the Black Shaheen (a version of SCALP-EG) did when France sold them to UAE.

    Either way, it seems Putin doesn't care about what MTCR says at this point - this is from his statement :

    http://tass.com/defense/906777
     
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  15. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    6 SSNs are simply not enough. We need SSNs for three basic purposes -

    • Escort & defend the fleet of 3 Arihant-class and the future 3-5 Avinash-class (S5) SSBNs.
    • Escort & defend the minimum 3 CBGs. A dedicated escort for each group needs to be maintained, so that it's possible to have all 3 carriers operational at the same time if the situation demands, and yet not allow their battle groups to go without a strong, long-range underwater protection.
    • Patrol the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), tail Chinese SSN/Pakistani SSK patrols, and keep sea lanes secure in times of war. And ofcourse, other intelligence/covert purposes.

    As you can see, 6 SSNs are just not enough. Even if you can keep all of them operational at the same time. Eventually, the requirement will be somewhere between 12 and 18 total SSNs.

    I'm not counting the 2 (or 3) leased Russian SSNs. They are principally for training purposes right now and while it's possible to attach them as part of carrier battle groups, it's doubtful if we can actually use them in times of declared hostilities.
    I'm not aware of any LPDs under any stage of construction. I don't think any contract for LPDs has even went out yet, correct me if I'm wrong about that part. In case you mean the 4 Multi-Role Support Vessels (MRSVs), it appears only the Juan Carlos and the Mistral are being considered at this point...and Carlos seems more likely to finally get the contract.

    Either way, they are nowhere near construction.
     
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