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India eyes Russian S-400 Triumf + associated news

Discussion in 'Indian Military Doctrine' started by arulcharles, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Lol bro you are humorous, like the cat who closes the eyes & thinks danger passes away. Well carry on same way & soon u be able to tell your grand kids proudly again, how we let it happen all over again.
    Just take it on your conscience, if we ever suffer the consequence.... Its bound to happen till border not decided, question is not if, but when.... I have nothing more to say to you.. Goodday!!

     
  2. Ripcord322

    Ripcord322 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Brother...Write a proper letter to the MoF...MoD...And the PMo
    Explain to them, your concerns and wait patiently for a reply....It is only then you might have a proper answer....


    Anyway...

    How much jump did you expect....!?




    We are not some well settled country with no social liabilities....There are millions of poor we have to take care of....Provide them Jobs... Education....

    To do that we have to attract industries (by giving incentives) and providing the people (more social spending)

    That needs billions...There are many ministries apart from the MoD....

    While I agree that there should be a credible defence to protect our economy...But there are other things too....
    Many people associate this administration and especially the party in power to just keep on increasing the budgets for the armed force and keep buying new weapons...That puts them in a very difficult spot....

    I am no loyalist of this administration...but I understand the situation they are in....The government has many other priorities.... apart from buying warplanes and missiles....
     
  3. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Just for all Info, by 2049 china be 4 times USA economically at expected 6-7% growth, with approx 2 Trillion dollar defense in current terms.
    If We all, aka USA, Russia, India, Japan Vietnam etc all jointly stand we be barely be enough. They settle the border, guys like jaitley & Ved ensure we quietly bow down, and let them decide border, including compromise in soveringty of decisions & stands & economy.

    China classification of a country is expansionist, one which seeks to expand borders, be it Japan, South China sea, India Border etc they all be under play. And its not run by democracy, so expect fascist behaviour in future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  4. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    It's the dove not cat which thinks so when it faces a cat.

    End of a good discussion. Good day.
     
  5. Ved Mishra

    Ved Mishra Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Jaitley and Ved.... LoLz.
     
  6. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Allocation for infrastructure stands at a record Rs 3,96,135 crore, it is good, but in a balanced budget 3,80,000 crs would have done wonderfully well too. the difference 16K cr could have been a great boost required for defence capital acquisitions, why i say that
    As currently of Rs86,000 crore on capital acquisitions, close to 90% of it is allocated to paying off instalments of money for past purchases of Sukhoi fighter craft, aircraft carrier, transport planes like the C130J Super Hercules and more. (remember past acquisitions bill, keep piling up, with each year)
    This year, the available budget for future acquisitions will be about Rs10,000 crore only & no more, additional 16K would have gone down a long way. 10K is saying good luck doing any acquisitions...
    Hope it gives a better prospective. (I am a nationalist too, but there are others, who defend blindly even if committed murder) 10K is murder & worse. Follow prevailing 5 years trend & in next 5-6 years be under 1% of GDP.
     
  7. cannonballs

    cannonballs FULL MEMBER

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    Whats the point of increasing the budget when 40k crore was surrendered last year. I dont get why people think allocation = spending. Even if we increase allocated budget we wont be able to spend those quickly as we have a slow acquisition process and they are anyway paid in installments we wont be liable to pay much in this year anyway.
     
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  8. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    yes there are some who at one side agree it is in instalments & believe anyway we dont have to pay anything much of past (quite contradictory) .
    If you read my post above, u get the picture of 86K defense capital outlay, 76K is already committed on purchases already made in past years, 10k remain.
    we can say fertiliser subsidiary is 8 times, the defence actual capital outlay of remaining 10k
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  9. cannonballs

    cannonballs FULL MEMBER

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    Not sure about those figures. In anycase 40k cr for CapEx was surrendered last year. If there was urgency or if the MoD had plans they could have used that by fasttracking some purchases.

    P.S: Would really really not compare Defense with Agriculture considering the amout of people it affects.
     
  10. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Then i suggest you do your homework on figures, before you come defending blindly, without aware of facts!!!!
     
  11. Inactive

    Inactive Guest

    Lot of speculation on mere 6% rise in defence allocation. Some points to consider:

    1. The pay and allowances (including pensions) account for 90% of the expenditure under this allocation. This is, and here again my oft repeated point will come into play, including the large Civilian Defence Employees as also MES. With the latest extension of NFU to MES and other Civil Defence Employees, the share will increase as also extension of CSD facilities will also eat into this very portion.

    2. The modernisation of armed forces is being undertaken under supplementary grants most of the times as the planned grants are insufficient at the time to meet our requirements. It is that portion which is usually surrendered at the end of the fiscal due to non-expense, invariably due to being stuck by at various levels like CFA/IFA.

    Now, it is upto the CIVIL elected government to decide what it wants the armed forces to do. ON both fronts, the Government of India, is hell bent on finishing off the armed forces.
     
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  12. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    INDIA'S DEFENSE BUDGET: TRAPPED IN A STRAITJACKET
    WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 08, 2017 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS
    [​IMG]

    These four strands are the declining ratio between defense expenditure (DE) in relation to GDP; the steady rise in the revenue component of the DE; the under-utilization of the allocated funds; and the relative decline of the Indian rupee in relation to the US dollar.

    by C. Uday Bhaskar
    The annual budget was presented on February 1 and the allocation for the Defence Ministry offers some instructive insights about how India plans to nurture its military -- that is, the three armed forces: the army, navy and air force.
    The total allocation for the financial year (FY) 2017-18 is a reasonable Rs 3,59,854 crore ($53 billion) and the increase over the last three years has been steady. In FY 2015-16, the total defense allocation was Rs 2,94,320 crores and while this increase of Rs 65,534 crore is seemingly large -- almost 23 percent over a three-year period -- the larger fiscal context provides some anomalous insights.
    The Indian defense budget is trapped in a strait-jacket which has four structural constraints that impede significant capacity creation and inventory modernisation.
    These four strands are the declining ratio between defence expenditure (DE) in relation to GDP; the steady rise in the revenue component of the DE -- which caters only to the standing costs of a 1.3 million-plus military; the under-utilization of the allocated funds -- particularly in the capital component of the DE which caters to acquisition and modernisation; and finally the relative decline of the Indian rupee in relation to the US dollar, which results in shrinking buying power in the global arms market.
    Strand 1: From FY to 2015-16 to the current fiscal 2017-18, the total defence allocation has increased from Rs 2,94,320 to Rs 3,45,106 and now Rs 3,59,854. However, as a ratio of DE to GDP it has varied: 2.15 per cent to 2.29 per cent and now 2.14 percent.
    Strand 2: The revenue component for any standing military of a million plus will invariably be substantial and the more recent pay-and-allowance and pension outflows have been relatively high. To its credit, the Narendra Modi government, despite some initial hesitation, has moved to resolve a long-festering issue for the Indian soldier -- that of restoring pensioner benefits for retired personnel. This was peremptorily withdrawn by the Indira Gandhi government almost 40 years ago and successive governments remained indifferent to this injustice.
    Due to the partial redress of the one-rank-one-pension (OROP) scheme, the revenue outflow of the DE has shown a sharp increase and this will be a recurring cost. Consequently, the revenue-to-capital ratio has shrunk to the detriment of the latter and the pension graph is illustrative. Over the same four-year period, the pension bill for the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has moved from Rs 60,238 crore to Rs 85,740 crore -- the current figure.
    The net result of this fiscal allocation is that the revenue-to-capital ratio after excluding the pension bill (which is for all the civilian and uniformed personnel administered by the MoD) is becoming more slanted towards revenue or standing costs. The ratio of revenue-to-capital in 2015-16 was 64.6 to 35.4 percent. In the budgeted estimate for 2017-18, it has skewed to 68.4 to 31.6 percent. This trend is likely to become more pronounced over the next few years as the government moves to provide to the soldier what is currently being paid to the civilian central government employee by way of pay/allowances and promotions.
    Strand 3: This is the more alarming -- by way of the impact of under-utilisation of funds allocated towards acquisition and modernisation. The inventory gaps in the Indian military are YUGE (to use a Trump expression!). One statistic is revealing. In FY 2015-16, the MoD returned more than Rs 13,000 crore from the capital head as unspent. In 2016-17, the unspent amount is closer to Rs 7,000 crore and this is a less than flattering reflection of the competence of fiscal planning and management within the MoD.

    Strand 4: India is among the top arms importers of the world in terms of foreign exchange spent and the current financial arrangements have led to a situation where the greater part of the capital head is pre-committed over a five- to ten-year period; meaning that inventory acquired is paid in annual amounts.
    The Indian rupee has weakened considerably over the last three years. In February 2015, it was Rs 61.63 to the dollar; it is now Rs 67.4. Thus the double-whammy is that the rate of induction of new inventory by the Indian military is impaired by both under-utilisation and a weakening rupee.
    If these structural constraints are not holistically addressed, the modernisation of the Indian military will be trapped in a fiscal straitjacket.
    C. Uday Bhaskar is Director, Society for Policy Studies.
     
  13. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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  14. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    To speed up deliveries, Russia's S-400 air defence system may come without offset package
    By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Updated: 21 Feb, 2017, 01:44 hrs IST

    [​IMG]

    NEW DELHI: The defence ministry may forego the offset clause to speed up deliveries of a Russian air defence system designed to deter Pakistani fighters and provide a missile shield for major cities, said people with knowledge of the matter.

    India and Russia will start final negotiations on the S 400 air defence system next month with the deal value pegged at Rs 39,000 crore. The offset clause, which fits in with the Make in India programme, mandates foreign companies to invest at least 30 per cent of the contract value in the Indian aerospace and defence sectors.

    The S 400 is an advanced air defence system that has already been ordered by China, which is likely to get its first deliveries later this year. India and Russia began talks after the government accepted an air force proposal to purchase five firing units of the system to protect both the northern and eastern borders.

    A top Russian official told ET that offsets could delay deliveries by as much as two years.

    "As far as I have heard, there is no offset package for the programme. It is a strategic project and is very important for the two countries," said Viktor N Kladov, director of international cooperation at Rostec, the Russian state-owned company that controls sales of the S 400 system. "It should not be played around with some offset packages."

    He said Russia would comply if India insisted on an offset package. But, he said, "It may delay delivery by one-two years and that is why a deal with no offsets package is the best choice."

    According to analysts, the offset clause typically adds 10-15 per cent to the value of a contract on account of the domestic investment required. Also, the non-compliance rate is very high as companies find it difficult to discharge the offset within the rules.

    Sources have told ET that while the defence ministry has approved the purchase of five firing units of the S 400 system for an estimated Rs.39,000 crore, two may be ordered in the initial phase. This could be increased based on performance, they said.

    If the contract is signed within a year, deliveries could start by 2019-20.

    "One year for the contract plus another two years for delivery. That will be the timeframe," Kladov said. "The Indian side invited us for negotiations in March. So, if we start negotiations in March, it will take another year to prepare for the contract. I do hope it will happen this year or maybe first half of next year."

    China will likely get the system this year itself after signing up to be the first export customer. Designed to counter a variety of threats from hypersonic cruise missiles to unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), airborne early warning aircraft, stealth fighters and even precision-guided munitions, the S 400 is the latest in a range of air defence systems that have posed a formidable threat to western aircraft across the world.

    http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...thout-offset-package/articleshow/57260971.cms
     
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  15. ReddyMan

    ReddyMan FULL MEMBER

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    @LonewolfSandeep

    And what exactly would you have them spend extra money on?

    Deals are not finalized and indigenous equipment is not ready. More money would be spent when HAL LUH can be ordered. More money would be spent when Astra and NAG missiles are ready. More money would be spent when TATA Kestrel finishes trials and can be ordered. Same goes for second fighter line, Scorpene follow-up, 57 new naval fighters, ATAGS, Super Sukhoi upgrade, etc.

    At least this government and DM has shone an actual willingness to improve the situation that had been previously stalled by a major margin. By 2019, I am willing to bet spending will be way up and most people will accuse this government of over-allocating funds to defense purchases if anything. Because there is simply no way current spending projections can match all the orders in the pipeline.
     
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