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India looking at $8 Billion Deal for 100 Avenger Drones for IAF.

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Lion of Rajputana, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I doubt we have the necessary infrastructure to operate these drones. In order to fly these birds we require dedicated satellites for navigation, communication, exchange of data via a two way link, satcoms.....etc. We would first have to upgrade our systems in order to operate these birds. Kindly correct me if i am wrong.

    @PARIKRAMA
    @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 001 @Hellfire @Agent_47 @Picdelamirand-oil @vstol jockey @Gessler @randomradio @MilSpec @Hellfire @GuardianRED@halloweene @Sancho @X_Killer @Angel Eyes @lca-fan @lca-fan
     
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  2. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    This is true but India already has similar infrastructure to operate the Herons and will be creating more for Rustom-H/TAPAS. However, the issue is that to operate US drones India will have to buy entirely NEW infrastructure on top of what it already has and the US are very inflexible so there will be little scope to localise the infrastructure or customise it, India will have to accept whatever the US says.
     
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  3. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Janaab,PMO thinks that it will serve certain purposes, including a push to their domestic politics....policies....

    Once mind is made up, you see....
     
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  4. ashkum2278

    ashkum2278 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Yes that's true, but these drones would have to operate on our secure communication satellites and not on US infrastructure, in any case we can be 100% sure that US will not part with any IPR and that India will only get Screwdriver tech/assembly in the name of TOT/MII.
     
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  5. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    We have satellites for this and will get more as and when the contract is signed and we start receiving drones.

    I don't think there is any license production.
     
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  6. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    LOL bro, US won't even discuss TOT for these systems with India.

    The part about data links/comns is an issue, it's likely US will insist on flying the UAVs via US sats and thus Indian data will be comprimised and the IN will have to set up entirely seperate infrastructure that is not networked with the rest of the service.

    Is this all really a cost worth incurring? I don't see it.
     
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  7. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    What @Abingdonboy is absolutely correct US won't allow to operate these drones through our own satellites and won't part with Datalinks, we will have to use their worldwide infrastructure and we will be able to use these drones only in US approved wars. So is US wants us to fight with China they'll allow us to fly these drones but if we want to fight Pakistan and US doesn't then these will be dead infrastructure for us............

    It basically means you buy a car and keys will be with company and whenever you want to drive you will have to take permission and if company doesn't want you drive the car you won't be able to drive................
     
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  8. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    We will use our own datalinks as is done on the P-8I.

    Absolutely. It's a capability only a few countries have. We started very late, so we need imports in order to keep up.
     
  9. X_Killer

    X_Killer Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Don't worry,
    At present India already has limited satellite channels for defence and in near future Defence will have its own secured satellite network.
    Also these assets can be maximize in future as per demand. If Indian will have a large fleet of UAVs and UCAVs than it pretty sure that we also have sufficient space and land based infrastructure to operate them.

    ToT may be an issue with US but I'm sure Indian defence forces will not agree to use US' SATCOM to operate acquired UAVs and UCAVs...
     
  10. Vyom

    Vyom Captain GEO STRATEGIC ANALYST

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    It is not coming in armed version I presume, also off the shelf buying. $15 Million includes profits so does weapons package (if any), actual training costs are not that high per drone. cannot equate with Rafale deal. (where we have to bear zero life cycle costs for 5 years and only a fraction for ten years... )
     
  11. randomradio

    randomradio Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    It is coming with weapons.

    They are developing a laser for it, but I'm not sure if that's available to us.

    The infrastructure costs for drones is quite high.

    Training costs are also high because we have zero experience in this and we are almost fully dependent on the OEM to provide training.

    Not to mention, drones have always been manpower heavy. Since drones can stay up in the air for 24 hours, we will need at least 2 shift rotations, so 2 crews have to be trained for each orbit (sortie). Although Avengers require less crew, we still need the equivalent of 2 people per flight crew, one to pilot and the other to operate sensors and deploy weapons. The equivalent to that for a single seat fighter aircraft is 1. And this does not include maintenance manpower.

    "Reaper’s infrastructure necessitates at least 171 personnel for each CAP: these include 43 mission control personnel, including seven pilots and seven sensor operators, 59 launch, recovery and maintenance personnel (including six more pilots and sensor operators), 66 Processing Exploitation Dissemination personnel for intelligence and its support (including 14 more maintenance personnel) and three “other equipment” personnel."

    Each CAP = Maintaining 4 Reapers in the air. However Avenger may require half this with the exception of the flight crew.

    This link says the Reaper costed 30M for the drone and ground equipment back in 2012.
    http://nation.time.com/2012/02/28/2-the-mq-9s-cost-and-performance/

    Considering that we are buying a more advanced version of the Reaper and that the American cost is for 399 Reaper drones while we are buying only 100, I have actually underestimated the cost of acquisition for India.

    It's obviously more than the 15+15 I have assumed. 15+25 is probably right.

    Read the article I posted, it clears a lot of questions you will have.

    We are paying the full amount necessary to operate the Rafale. There are no shortcuts.

    @Hellfire
     
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  12. sunstersun

    sunstersun Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Drones are expensive.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...s-of-potential-french-mq-9-reaper-buy-387801/

    Reaper drones that had a mature production line, were unarmed, less capable than the avenger drone went about 100mil a pop. 16 for 1.5 bil

    Course, France ordered less so there is less economies of scale.

    Flyaway costs are almost always below reality price, training+logistics+infrastructure usually represent half if not more of of a purchase like this.
     
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  13. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate Staff Member MODERATOR

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    The last bit is an overkill .... but running busy shifting base so will reply later in detail
     
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  14. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Bad choice. They should fill up the fighter requirement first. And in the meantime let Rustom Mature and concentrate on UCAV. This is really idiotic from MoD
     
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  15. mugundhan

    mugundhan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    @Abingdonboy if you think USA doesn't have access to Heron. pls read the article
    https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/israeli-drone-feeds-hacked-by-british-and-american-intelligence/

    USA Can take over any of our drones in their WILL
     

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