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India loses its edge over China's navy

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by OverLoad, Apr 3, 2017.

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  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    At least till they develop a stealth fighter for our carriers, then things changes and offensive missions will have more chances, be it again Chinese carrier or attacks to the coastal defence.
     
  2. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Indian navy believes in superior combat tactics using minimum resources and effective attack strategy, chinese can use many ships, but fighting away from home is like running back again and again just to get back to full strength, meanwhile what we need is conventional submarine pens in A&N island, we can cut off their logistics, and we know how bad the chinese are in ASW.....
     
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  3. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    sancho fighters have limited effect on a CBG, its not ww2 anymore, they have good Anti aircraft Sams with AEGIS systems on type 55's, what we need is good nuclear submarines or SSNs, 12 SSN would do wonders in long run, effective and deadlier than aircrafts......
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    True it's not WW2 anymore, which is why the capabilities to attack a carrier have even increased. Back than you only had a chance with close in attacks with bombs and torpedoes, if you were able to find the CBG in the first place. Today you have spy sats, long range drones and surveillance aircrafts, long range cruise missiles, that can be launched from fighters in save distances. Not to mention even stealth fighters and vessels that can get close to a CBG with reduced reaction time. The biggest threat for a CBG however are modern hunter subs, be it AIP SSK's or SSN's. So the treat level for a carrier has increased by far compared to WW2 and a carrier is a big target.

    That's exactly why I say that China will use it's carrier in defensive roles, till they get more capable once with stealth fighters and in higher numbers. Till then their sub fleet poses the biggest threat for us and that actually needs to be countered.
     
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  5. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    I can ask the same question about Chinese. Why bother about carriers when you have DF-21 ?

    We choose STOBAR because we had no other options. Not because we are stupid.

    If you have taken time to look at long term IN plan you won't say this. Now go through it and tell me how exactly we are neglecting the areas you mentioned?
    Answer before.

    They still don't have a capable sub fleet to do it in far away waters.
     
  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Because their defence doctrine against Japan for example, also includes offensive actions and carriers are meant to project power.
    Just as we used our carriers against Pakistan and Bangladesh, to cut off their coastlines and create another front. But if we want to counter an Chinese carrier in the IOR with our carriers, we should counter it far before it is in reach of out coastlines, but then we will be limited to the capabilities of the carriers and the airwing

    A STOBAR carrier doesn't mean you should use the least capable carrier fighter in the world (NLCA), nor that we couldn't make the airwing more capable by adding better aircrafts. Possibly F18SH, Merlin or V22 AEWs, V22 for long range ASW or SAR for example would be game changers for the operational capability.

    The carrier would be far more capable in sub hunting and also for offensive operations against an enemy carrier or shore bases.
    All these capabilities are only planned by IN if we get catapults for IAC2 with suitable aircrafts, while our 2 STOBAR carriers will remain limited.


    How so? They have more nuclear and conventional subs than we have and we see plenty of them already operating in the IOR and building the necessary logistics:

    [​IMG]

    We even see them selling SSKs to Pakistan now, which are likely to give PN 2nd strike capabilities.
    A huge threat for the future, which our focus on carriers and medicore airwings won't change.
    Sadly all important ASW related procurements are delayed by the government as it seem, which only adds to the problem.
     
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  7. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    And without even a single exercise? You know how many exercise require to operationalize a single doctrine?

    And how you surely claim this even when they not able to cross spratly islands?

    Okey lets say they want to blockade the whole India? Do you have any plan how they bypass all security and fortified lines in ocean? Dont think if this is ocean fortification dont exist. How you think they planning to cross Diego Garcia? I already assumed you not going toward Mallaca Straits.



    The carriers are not go alone but in CBG, and these are not only for ASW, but creating a sterilized zone, for dominating that region, which is even exercised by Indian Navy in this TROPEX.

    And yes a CATOBAR carrier will always be lightyears ahead of STOBAR is operationalization and mission achievements.


    That is even foolish to say that, each and every sub was tracked, and some was even leaked to media by Indian Navy for there own benefits.

    You really want to show this map? These are commercial ports not military ports. There is a huuuuuuuuuuge difference between them. That is like comparing a star with a galaxy.

    Otherwise why you left Australia, Chinese also operate a port in Australia. List that also. Maybe next fleet deployment of PLAN come from Australia.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-privatisation-ports-idUSKCN11P04O
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  8. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    In future war campaigns, Indian navy will be having edge only if we can somehow get 30+submarines and 60+surface combatants...... in anywar with the PLAN Andaman and Nicobar Islands will play an important role and will be and should be our first line of defence, why not get more subs and control areas beyond Malacca???we need a change in doctrine, we need to expand our reach and operational capabilities and station some serious fleet at the A&N to cause some major stir in the enemy camp, a carrier their would be an overkill and perfect place for trap.....carriers have used Islands during world war 2 effectively during the battles of midway, layte gulf, Marianas, and etc, also the collective battle group defence is increasingly getting better as more major surface combatants are joining the navy, a 600km+ range brahmos and barak 8 combo will help protect and hit the enemy...... i hope barak ER with 120km range comes soon and can anybody put light on drdo proposed LRSAM that would cover 100-250km range area?
     
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  9. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    Phuk, I cant belive I am doing this. But lets do it, seems like its become important.

    [​IMG]

    This is approx deployment plan since Page 1 of this thread.

    Please anyone tell me this is as simple as drawing lines in Paint Shop? And whole world's ISR become dead while deployment of such huge scale going on by PLAN in IOR?
     
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  10. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    War time deployments and peace time deployments are different. Because of various reasons, logistics, nearest friendly ports, outreach missions etc. @vstol jockey able to explain this better.

    And yes as for submarines, we need submarines, but not SSK, but 10-15 SSN, for patrolling around Diego Garcia, because that is point where even future IN's SSBN will deploy.

    That is vital to protect from PLAN's SSN that come for hunting Indian Navy's SSBN. And we also need SSNs for deploying in SCS for various reasons.

    Including intelligence gathering missions.
     
  11. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    We already have a huge base in far south east, just need someone to fix it, its like renovation of an old house, we never used a&d to its full potential, i was there for 3 years, only namesake formality....... We need a forward deployment base their, everyone is so busy with Pakistan.....:hmm:
     
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  12. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    That is what I agree.

    We not only under-utilized A&N as militaristically, but economically too.

    Actually because of A&N, India is also an ASEAN power, but we running away from realizing this while this is written on wall.
     
  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    They do naval exercises with Russia, got expertise and training on carrier operations from Ukraine and Brazilian navy. They build the whole carrier and naval Flanker with limited support and are testing them for years now. They train their amphibious capabilities just as our navy does, but are far better equipped. So is it really the lack of historic experience, that makes them not capable to be a good navy?

    You obviously haven't read my posts, because I specifically said that they will NOT use their carrier in our case, but their sub fleet to attack us! Because it's easier and more efficient for them. So blocking was never the point but attacking vital naval or land assets up to a nuclear strike is within their reach, if they can operate in the region with logistical support. That's what their expansion in ports and now even airstrips are about and we see the same in the south Chinese sea as well.
    Only because they don't publically declare them to be for military use, doesn't mean they are not.
     
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  14. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    We all know track record and experience they learn from like Ukraine and Brazil. Brazil even have concept of CBG?

    No, that is different, military ports are different. Whole infrastructure become different.

    for just start one need ammo depot, fuel depot, administration buildings, Officers and sailors living quarters etc etc etc. And these are simple thing, I am not going for complex things like different channels. And how someone assumed, if China do so, then India wont retaliate . India definitely retaliate , and there are many ways which can nullify this build-up.

    After all I always need to remind people, India is also a nuclear power.

    And further, I am unable to understand why Sri Lanka and Bangladesh allow such things? If you want to punish, you can punish these countries at any time. Just scrap the FTA with Sri Lanka, and I assure you within 5 years Sri Lanka go bankrupt.

    No one able to save them, not even china.
     
  15. kaku

    kaku Major Technical Analyst

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    And as for Submarine, I agree with submarines issue, and the threat is only SSN, no one is that idiot to send the SSK in Indian Ocean for targeting Indian Navy.

    And India need to build those 6 SSN ASAP. Atleast we start to patrol SCS.
     
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