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Indian Navy Floats New Anti-Ship Missile Contest

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Gessler, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    via LIVEFIST

    [​IMG]
    BrahMos Block-I ASCM Launch from INS Kolkata

    With the Indian Ocean in steady churn, the Indian Navy wants new anti-ship missiles. A lot of them. And it has begun the process tentatively by throwing the doors open to a brand new contest this week to give its current and incoming warships higher performance missile systems. The hardly subtle muscle flexing that has transformed the Indian Ocean into a playground for offensive power projection has meant that India needs all its bases, as it were, covered. The new acquisition declared this week is aimed at meeting a critical requirement with an eye on increasingly unfriendly seas.

    The target with this new acquisition: the fitment of a new medium range anti-ship missile (MRAShM, officially) system on 24 frontline ships on an initial order of 270 missiles, with paperwork for additional orders. The navy is looking to field test the wares of all interested contenders after it officially sends our requests for proposal early next year.

    Livefist can confirm that the new missiles are intended to replace the legacy Zvezda Kh-35 Uran anti-ship missile systems currently fitted on the Indian Navy’s three Delhi-class destroyers, four Kora-class missile corvettes and the six new Next Generation Missile Vessels (NGMV) that will enter service in the next decade. The navy’s stipulation for an options clause suggests that follow-on orders could be considered for the four under-build P15B Visakhapatnam-class destroyers and seven P17A (follow-on to the Shivalik class) stealth frigates.

    [​IMG]
    Kh-35 ASCM

    Apart from the Uran system, the navy currently operates the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, Club-N anti-ship/land attack cruise missile and even a few P-20 Termit systems on a handful of missile boats. Vendors have been asked to supply separate timelines for delivery under India’s Buy (Global), Buy and Make (Indian) and Buy and Make categories. Top Indian Navy sources confirm the service is looking for a system that’s built in India under license, throwing the contest open to companies like the Kalyani Group, Adani Group and Reliance Defence, all of which have forged techno-corporate understandings with foreign missile firms.

    https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/08/indian-navy-floats-new-anti-ship-missile-contest.html

    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @PARIKRAMA @vstol jockey @Levina @Agent_47 @Hellfire

    And @SHIV AROOR

    Shiv, a couple questions regarding this procurement:

    1) What about the BrahMos-NG? I always assumed the NG will be procured from the BrahMos Aerospace JVC directly to be used as the Navy's future medium anti-ship missile, for ship, air & submarine-based applications. But this tender presents us with a set of complications, don't you think?

    2) I still don't get why Navy would want these smaller ASCMs on ships like P-15B and P-17A when they are better off being equipped with the larger 3-ton BrahMos? And in future can't we expect the BrahMos-2K to become the principle surface-warfare weapon replacing the Block-I on main surface combatants?

    I assumed the whole purpose of procuring this MRAShM is to equip the smaller Corvette-sized vessels which don't have the space to carry the BrahMos.
     
  2. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Brahmos JSC will also bid for this tender and they are likely to be selected. Brahmos is a separate entity now and it is not like DRDO.
     
  3. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    What can Brahmos JSC offer though? The Brahmos-M is still not developed.
     
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  4. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    How could they? It is made in India, it's guidence is Indian as are much of its on board electronics.
     
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  5. Hjörþrimul

    Hjörþrimul FULL MEMBER

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    Brahmos is overkill for many of the platforms you'll see in the region. Great for checking larger Chinese warships, poor against Pakistan's dinghies and party boats. A costly, heavy weapon to use against this.

    [​IMG]

    The plus side is there is nothing the PN could do to stop Brahmos. Its missile defense capabilities and electronic warfare options are especially limited at sea. The Zulfiquar class, Pakistan's largest combatants, has a limited defensive countermeasures suite. A lightweight jammer, decoy flare and chaff launchers... nothing I'd expect to counter a modern anti-ship missile like Brahmos.

    Likewise, PNS Alamgir still retains its American made SLQ-32 electronic countermeasures support system, but it's an older, lightweight module. I doubt it's been upgraded to the standards needed to counter fast moving, countermeasures-resistant anti-ship missiles.

    [​IMG]

    A heavy-light anti-shipping mix would do nicely to allow the IN to focus Brahmos on critical assets, while retaining a potent mix for smaller, or less defensible ships in the PN. Outfit a VLS array with Brahmos, slap a few tubes on the deck of a lighter Ashm.

    Harpoon Block II+ ER, Exocet Block III (a tad too old imho), RBS-15MK3, NSM, some as of yet unknown domestic option, there's a host of quality missiles to chose from.

    Nah. They could kill Brahmos, but not via a kill-switch.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  6. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Agreed, I think Shiv is wrong on this front, there's no reason for these larger vessels to comprimise their overall performance by fitting a smaller/less capable missile in place of the Brahmos. In the future these larger vessels will be equipped with the Nirbhay.

    The MRAShM only makes sense to fit on the smaller vessels not already equipped with Brahmos VLS.
     
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I think this is separate from Brahmos.
     
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  8. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    I have been saying this for a long time. We need to develop an indian light weight Ashm (Harpoon/Exocet class). We are over depended on Brahmos. Two year ago there was a tender for 15 mobile missile coast battery. That was for some 200+ missiles, No talk on it after that. All our future SSKs also need this class to fire from torpedo tube. and Are we going to use imported Ashm for ships we exporting ?

    1-e58468150b.jpg

    Screenshot (5).png

    Considering such number requirement DRDO should be developing it by now. We already have all the tech. Make a mini-Nirbhay.


    BrahMos-NG is entirely new missile and its at least 5 years away from service entry. IN won't wait for it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  9. Indian Jatt

    Indian Jatt Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I want something like a INS sumitra with vls for 32+32 ashm like harpoon or something for land attack and fleet offensive units with big ships protecting them
     
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  10. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    First of all, thanks for those cool pics! The first & last one especially - the colors & lighting is soothing enough to put me to sleep (it's 4:30AM here and I'm staring at the computer screen). And I'm being weird now.

    I think you know what my preference is: the BrahMos-NG

    [​IMG]

    Why that? A number of reasons:

    • It is developed & will be produced by the India-based BrahMos Aerospace (BA) JV Company (where the Indian Govt. holds 50.5% and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia holds 49.5%). The article already states that it's mandatory for the missile to be built/assembled within India. I seriously doubt any of the other possible contenders (with the exception of MBDA) would be able to challenge BA's established infrastructure in this regard. Not to mention any possible integration problems (with non-Western electronics) and more importantly, I don't think the US will allow India to license-build advanced Harpoon variants. We might not have much difficulty with France and their Exocet. I'll leave it to you to figure out if the Indo-Norwegian defense relationship is strong enough to facilitate an India-based production line for the NSM (it'll be building at least ~250 missiles I think, if we estimate 20 as off-the-shelf purchase against the requirement of 270). You will need a good tie-up with a local industrial giant...the advantage for French/Russian agencies is that they've been in this market for a long time and it's easier for them to strike up a partnership with a multi-billion company like Reliance, Tata or L&T.
    • It will have a degree of commonality with the larger 3-ton BrahMos Block-I ASCMs on larger combatants.
    • We'll still be buying Harpoons & Exocets even if we disregard this competition. AGM-84 for P-8I & Jaguar (in service), UGM-84 for Type-209 SSKs (on order), and SM40 for Scorpenes (test-fired from INS Kalvari). But however, the BrahMos-NG is likely to have a much bigger footprint within the IN, it will be equipped on carrier-based fighters (both MiG-29K and Rafale-M), and has scope for deployment from the Arihant-class submarines' torpedo tubes. Adding a ship-launch profile to that portfolio might just make a lot of a sense from both a cost & logistics perspective. Especially when considering the Air Force's uses for this missile as well.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    • The weapon itself. Weighing in at around 1.5t it'll be about half as heavy as it's older cousin, will have a 300-km maximum range and it's newer, refined Ramjet engine can allow a maximum speed of Mach 3.5 at altitude...although a slower, sea-skimming approach can also be effected if required. It's hard to not want it!
    Hmm...when I was thinking up my reply I had at least another 1 or 2 points to talk about. Can't remember now. Shhleeepy.

    Perhaps. But then again...which of the possible vessels that this MRAShM could arm do you think would be ready within 5 years? This missile is meant to replace the Kh-35 in the type of role the Uran used to fulfill in the IN, not for taking out all the Urans on the ships they currently equip and replacing them with the new missiles. When Uran retires, so will most of the ships that currently use it.

    The way I see it, the MRAShM is mainly for the 7 x Next Generation Corvettes (NGC; 1000-ton) and the 6 x Next-Generation Missile Vessels (NGMV; 1400-ton). If we assume each of these 13 ships to have 8 missiles, that's 104 missiles between them. So I wonder why the stated requirement is for 270 missiles? Does this mean whichever missile is selected will be playing the role of a coastal defense weapon as well (that tender didn't get anywhere before, as you said)?

    I don't buy into the speculation that P-15B and P-17A will be equipped with MRAShM. Nor do I think the P-15 will or should be upgraded with this smaller missile - that 6900t DDG should be carrying the BrahMos Block-I/Klub.
     
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  11. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    @Gessler

    To further the discussion away from the Brahmos NG ( for now)

    1) In addition to changes to the launchers for the new missiles + what addition hardware will be required like for eg: for targeting ? etc...

    2) What are the equivalent Russian AShM? + would it be simpler to go with the advance variant of the KH series this along with quicker integration and turn around time?
     
  12. mugundhan

    mugundhan 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    cant we mix and match Brahmos for long range(450 - 600km) and medium range (300km) more numbers?
    for future ships
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  13. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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    I do think this tender is for smaller ships. But Delhi class have inclined launchers not VL. IN would prefer to arm it with similar missile that of Kh-35. Brahmos is 4-5 times heavier than Uran. Brahmos-NG with weight double.

    [​IMG]

    Also, Next-Generation Missile Vessels will be optimized for anti surface roles not anti-shipping. This missile is not a suitable choice.

    I wounder how you assumed the tonnage of the future corvettes?
     
  14. Notsuperstitious

    Notsuperstitious 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Wasnt there a tweet by someone saying these are for our OPVs?

    If true, it would suggest an approach similar to the americans, of incresing firepower on existing hulls.

    It would also make sense that these are not for the larger ships as proposed in the article. Certainly the new missile boats, asw corvettes and OPVs seem to be the candidates.
     
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  15. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Well there is the new Kh-35UE. You're right we can't rule it out just yet.

    The bigger BrahMos does have an inclined launcher option (seen on Rajput-class)...I have no reason to believe the Delhi cannot handle the BrahMos.

    Anti-Surface and Anti-Shipping are the same thing.

    In case you mean land-attack, I don't see why BrahMos-NG isn't suitable. Sure it can't be as stealthy as a Nirbhay but then again we'll be having Nirb on future Destroyer-class ships in much bigger numbers (16-32) for carrying out saturating land-attack roles. For attacking coastal targets, I'd prefer speed over stealth...largely because slower terrain-hugging missiles have nothing to hide behind (except the horizon) when flying over water.

    For any reason I don't see the IN using small corvettes to attack deep inland targets. The number of missiles needed to effectively clean out such targets can only be deployed by destroyers (or the Arihant-class submarines if you put vertically launched Nirbhays on them).

    I don't remember exactly where I picked up those numbers from. Anyway the tonnage is irrelevant. Both NGC and NGMV will be required to carry 8 cruise missiles each. The Shallow-Water ASW ships we're procuring (I think 16 vessels under SW-ASW class) won't carry any SSMs.
     
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