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Indian Small Arms Thread

Discussion in 'Tactical Hardware' started by Gessler, May 20, 2017.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Use this thread for posting all news, updates & images of all the firearms produced in India or used by the Indian Armed Forces/Paramilitary units/Police Forces.

    Starting off with some latest pics of the new OFB-built 7.62x51mm LMG (basically an FN MAG clone that is slightly smaller & weighs less than a MAG or M240 versions...and comes with Picatinny rails on top).

    Thanks to Water Car Engineer for the pics.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @PARIKRAMA @Agent_47 @MilSpec @Hellfire @Levina @Ankit Kumar 001 @Grevion @lca-fan
     
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  2. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Hope it comes with a polymor stock.

    Other than that, it's 7.62x51mm, the IA asking for a 7.62x51mm calibre assualt rifle as opposed to 7.62x39 makes a lot of sense, having commonality within a fireteam/squad/company/platoon is highly desirable.

    Really hope the AAR/MCIWS comes in 7.62x51mm calibre, then this entire small arms mess the IA has got itself in can be over for this generation.
     
  3. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Not so sure about this.
     
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  4. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    It seems more of a PKT copy to me.

    A PKT chambered for NATO ammunition.
     
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  5. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Yep, as I previously said...

    "Yet another possibility is that at least a select few units of the regular infantry will be receiving a mix of 5.56x45 (INSAS-1B1 now, MCIWS in future) and 7.62x51 (whichever is selected now) Nato caliber assault rifles. This would create an obvious ammo division which could have been avoided...but then we also need to look at OFB's development of 7.62x51 LMG (provided that report is correct).

    If the 2nd possibility is realized, it could mean the infantry is making a big jump toward the x51 NATO round. Which would be shared by at least 1 type of AR, LMG & DMR. 5.56 will be in use, but in much reduced numbers than now."

    http://indiandefence.com/threads/f-...try-soldier-project.10966/page-13#post-524127

    ...it appears IA is going for a common caliber between Assault Rifles, LMGs and DMR. I didn't like that back then, but right now I'm starting to like these developments somewhat. The .308 is a powerful round.

    Only thing I still don't really like is the fact that eventhough we'll be having a common ammunition, we'll be having a very varied arsenal which won't be giving us much commonality even where we could have had it...

    • An AK-based 308 as the standard assault rifle (Ghaatak variant)
    • An FN MAG-based LMG
    • Most probably a foreign AR10-based DMR
    I would have preferred for IA to have an SLR-based AR & DMR. But now my feeble mind is hoping OFB will at least try to make a DMR that has something in common with the 308 Ghaatak. Some fantasies of mine -

    Krebs Custom build
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Vepr 7.62x54mmR build
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    But knowing our procedures...we'll definitely end up with a DMR that has nothing in common with the ARs we operate. :cry:

    P.S. Did you all notice the LMG spec sheet in OP shows the gun with a foregrip attached to the lower rail?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
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  6. Luttapi

    Luttapi 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    MCIWS is configured to fire in 5.56 NATO , 7.62×39 and in 68 Remington SPC. MCIWS uses a gas operated short stroke piston design and includes an indigenous under barrel grenade launcher. 1-Multi-Calibre-Individual-Weapon-System.jpg
     
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  7. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Here's an INSAS-MK1C chambered in 7.62x51 Nato, as well as what is being claimed by Shatrujeet's FB page as the 7.62x51 AK-103 clone (the 308 Ghaatak) -

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Not sure if I buy into this just yet...waiting for some close-ups of the spec sheets of these two rifles...

    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 001 @Agent_47
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  8. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    [​IMG]

    ^^ There we go. There's an OFB-made AK-103 clone (this is NOT the Ghaatak) in the middle, with the usual 7.62x39mm Kalashnikov rounds. The one in foreground is the INSAS-MK1C which may have been intended as the 7.62x51mm Nato rifle as the spec sheet behind it illustrates (see in previous pics). There's also the new OFB bolt-action sniper rifle also chambered for the same ammo.
     
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  9. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    From INDRA Networks FB Page:

    GHAATAK RIFLE UPDATE

    We were in the attendance of the recently held International Police and Homeland Security Expo 2017, New Delhi. There, we interacted with the Ordnance Factory Board's representatives, and found that -

    1) The army has rejected the Ghaatak Rifle because it chambers 7.62×39 mm bullets whereas according to Army's new requirements, they're looking for rifles which can fire 7.62×51 mm bullets.

    2) To meet the demands of the army, they have developed a new rifle but haven't named it yet (we will be posting the pictures of that rifle too) which is indeed a direct derivative of AK 103 with slight modifications.

    3) The OFB is now looking for the potential buyers as some state police forces and central armed police forces have shown interest in Ghaatak.

    4) A total of 400 Rifles have been issued.

    • ABOUT GHAATAK RIFLE

    Ghaatak Assault rifle, developed by Rifle Factory Ishapore, is a gas operated weapon with rotating bolt locking system. It fires 7.62×39mm cartridge with a muzzle velocity of 670 m/s. Without magazine, the rifle weighs 3.4 kg and length is 896mm (fixed butt) 665mm (folded butt). It can hold 30 rounds in its polycarbonate magazine which can be fired in a Single shot or in automatic mode with a firing rate of 600 rounds per minute.The effective firing range is 300m. The foresight is pillar type and the rear sight is ‘U’ notched, Graduated and Ramp type (100-800). It is provided with mechanical and applied safety. The 414mm barrel of the weapon is Chromium plated for longer life. A light weight modular handguard with detachable Picatinny rail on upside and down and slot rail sections in sides where more rails can be added as per need.

    [​IMG]

    +++

    Prasun K. Sengupta's original statement from February (first posted on the forum by me here: http://indiandefence.com/threads/f-...try-soldier-project.10966/page-13#post-524395) finally checks out. OFB is indeed making an AK-based assault rifle chambered in 7.62x51mm Nato....anyone who has any doubts can put them to rest for good. This rifle is indeed intended to be the INSAS replacement.

    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @Agent_47 @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 001
     
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  10. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Why can't the INSAS MK-1C chambered for 7.62x51 do the job? Surely this would be a far more economical and practical solution?

    And what of the MCIWS? Has the IA firmly rejected the mutli-cal concept?

    Once again, the IA has made a mess for itself and it's hard to object to the notion that it was intentional.
     
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  11. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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  12. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Kunal Biswas' view regarding the locally-made AK situation appears sound to me. Various OFB factories are responding to an original Army requirement that called for new 7.62x39 Kalashnikovs (probably intended as replacements for some of the older AKMs and Vz.58s operated by RR); Rifle Factory Ishapore came out with the Ghaatak, Ordnance Factory Trichy with it's Trichy Assault Rifle (TAR) and probably Small Arms Factory Kanpur with this new AK-103 clone we're seeing above.

    [​IMG]
    RFI's Ghaatak

    However the Army decided to not procure any new Kalashnikovs (instead going ahead with the FAB Defense modernization kit to increase functionality of existing Russian/Romanian/Bulgarian AKs; this is my view btw) and decided to jump on the 7.62x51 NATO bandwagon for the more long-term requirement of a proper assault/battle rifle. For which OFB factories could once again be responding with potential solutions. Is the 7.62 INSAS-MK1C above one of these solutions? I don't know honestly.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    FAB Defense kit for AK. The Indian Army models seen so far were equipped with a holosight + magnifier optics setup (as seen above).

    Meanwhile, the OFB factories can't and shouldn't let their already-developed Kalashnikov-cloned products go to waste. So they're marketing those to the Police and Paramilitary units within the country....and at least RF Ishapore has had some notable success in this venture if I might add.

    [​IMG]

    On the other hand...anyone who, like me, thought it strange that OFB should decide to convert x39 Kalashnikov to x51 Nato will certainly find this funny. OFB had already done the opposite a while back: take an x51 SLR and convert it to x39 Kalashnikov. :cheesy: Credit goes to OF Trichy. Though I think later on, Trichy decided to switch to a proper AK body to base their TAR on.

    [​IMG]

    Now they are currently taking an x39 Kalashnikov and converting it to x51 Nato. :hitwall: Ye kya chutiyapanti hai bhai...why not just base all x51 designs on SLR and all x39 designs on AK?? Why the visibly stupid, mis-matched approach and desire to re-invent the wheel? If anyone here can throw some light on this BS of top order, kindly do so and please enlighten me.

    It appears 7.62x51 will be the standard assault/battle rifle caliber and 5.56x45 will be relegated to a 'carbine' role. @Abingdonboy

    Been asking myself that. Haven't hit upon any ideas so far as to why.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
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  13. Luttapi

    Luttapi 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    IA just changes goal post so that they can buy costly imported machinery.
     
  14. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    So this is how the Army's future arsenal will turn out to be (based on latest available info):

    Carbine: MCIWS (5.56x45mm) ~ combination of INSAS & AR-15 designs
    Assault Rifle: OFB Ghaatak Variant (7.62x51mm) ~ clone of AKM/AK-103 design
    Designated Marksman Rifle: Unknown (7.62x51mm) ~ most probably Western AR-10 based design
    Light Machine Gun: OFB Belt-Fed LMG (7.62x51mm) ~ modified FN MAG design

    What could have been...

    Carbine: SLR Conversion (5.56x45mm) ~ similar to IMBEL A2 Carbine OR stick with MCIWS 5.56 as it's already developed
    Assault Rifle: Full-length SLR Modernized (7.62x51mm) ~ similar to IMBEL A2 Rifle
    Designated Marksman Rifle: SLR with long barrel & other modifications (7.62x51mm)
    LMG can be the same

    If we went with SLR modernization program...we could have easily derived carbines, AR and DMR from the same platform.

    [​IMG]
    IMBEL A2 7.62

    [​IMG]
    IMBEL A2 5.56

    A DMR conversion from there would've been relatively easy, cheap and cost-effective...

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    Best quality image of FAB Defense modernization kit in use on Rashtriya Rifles Kalashnikov -

    [​IMG]
    The components of the kit comprise of:

    Quad-Rail Polymer Handguard
    [​IMG]
    AGR-47 Rubberized Grip
    [​IMG]
    T-FL QR Foregrip (can be set in 7 positions for maximum shooter comfort)
    [​IMG]
    UAS-AK P Folding Buttstock (with collapsible cheek-rest)
    [​IMG]
    Picatinny Dust Cover (PDC) with full-length P-Rail
    [​IMG]

    All available components from FAB Defense are mentioned here in their official site: https://www.fab-defense.com/en/weapon-ak-47-74.html

    Optics are a reflex/holosight & magnifier combination;

    SightMark Ultra Shot M-Spec
    [​IMG]
    FALKE Magnifier of unknown power
    [​IMG]


    @Abingdonboy @randomradio @PARIKRAMA @Levina @MilSpec @Agent_47 @Ankit Kumar 001
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
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