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Indian Small Arms Thread

Discussion in 'Tactical Hardware' started by Gessler, May 20, 2017.

  1. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Burst firing is rather simple as the repeated recoil does the job of keeping you nearly stationary. Only thing is that the firer must be able to hold the gun on target to keep a very small grouping.
    When my daughter underwent Rifle firing training in INA, she had a problem. She was not able to cock the gun in Prone position. And she was very distressed about this. She called me up and I told her to just pivot her left elbow on ground to cock the rifle. She used to try cocking the gun with her left elbow up in air. She did that and got it right straight away. next day she called me and said, "papa, you are Genius". I told her, "beta, I am not genius, its just that I learnt this when you were not even born".
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  2. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Sorry are we still talking about the 7.62X51mm in the Vid posted or the AK clones?
     
  3. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major REGISTERED

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    7.62 Of OFB.

    The reference to AK clones was for build quality , due to which , in July , a decent size of order went to a foreign company...
     
  4. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod MODERATOR

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    I think you mean the Sten. Which by the way is an extremely efficient design.

    I have few issues with the JVPC/MSMC
    Design (and Weight)
    Cartridge performance
    Logistical compatibility.

    Design:
    Submachine guns in my opinion should be simple blow back design, firing an pistol caliber round or at max an intermediate round.
    MSMC or the JVPC on the other hand is a shortened minsas, as still has the same gas piston mechanism as the Insas. What I find hilarious is it still has a bayonet lug on it.


    Cartridge performance:

    The Indian Minsas is similar to Fn 5.7, which is 5.7x28mm design, it is superior to the 9mm in terminal ballistics. And I understand the intent behind the design.

    I have ranted before about the round (Which i semi retract now) :) @Ankit Kumar 001
    OFB manufactured standard 5.56 x 45 is already underpowered, when you take 5.56 x 45 (energy 1125 ft/lb )and cut it down to 30mm case length, your energy drops to something around 750 (incorrect, see calculation below) ft/lb. 5.56 nato's main advantage has been it's high velocity which compensates for it's small diameter, but when you cut down the case length, you end up with crappy terminal ballistics and crappy velocity. A 9mm round still will travel at a lower velocity than the 5.56 x 30 but will have a projectile almost twice the diameter, the bullet weight at 9.54 grains for ofb 9mm fmj is twice of the 5.56, hence it will be much more effective at close range.

    Minsas, MSMC's 5.56x30 round takes the best features of 5.56 Nato, i.e flat shooting high velocity, and trims it down, while retaining it's bad feature, i.e it's projectile diameter. It's like taking Amitabh Bachhan and cutting him down to Amir Khans size.


    E = (M x V²) ÷ K

    where K = 450,435 and is derived from (2 x 32.1739 x 7000),
    M is the weight of the projectile, in grains,
    V is the velocity in feet per second and
    E is the energy in foot pounds.

    JVPC has a barrel length of 11.8" .

    Following is the velocity table for different barrel lengths.
    upload_2017-8-4_9-57-35.png

    Given that case length reduces from 45mm to 30 mm, the reduction is 33%. Assuming linear relationship between charge and the velocity.

    Subsequent velocity for 5.56x30 from 11.8" barrel would be 1804.6675 ft/s, for a 62 grain bullet.


    E= 448.3 ft.lbf (or 607.8 Joules). Almost 1/3rd the energy of the a round fired from a full size Insas. Question is is that enough, if forces are Ok with that, we should be fine too.

    Also remember that FN5.7 was a new design from ground up, whereas Minsas is shortened 5.56x45Nato. Which is only made in 64grain ball variant.

    Now Energy is just one part of the equation.
    Look at the projectile diameter, If you have a slow moving bullet , it should be a big hunk of lead like the 45acp ( its velocity is 885 ft/s) but that big projectile makes a big hole in the end. Similarly if you have a small bullet like the 5.45x39 or the 5.56x45, the tiny bullet has a lot of speed behind it to tumble in the flesh.
    Minsas 5.56x30 tried to be jack of all trades with the speed, bullet diameter/ terminal energy. Its an ok bullet, and should be satisfactory replacement for 9mm.

    Logistics:
    It would make sense to adopt a carbine which has commonality of caliber with standard issue sidearm. I don't think there will be a 5.56x30mm handgun offering so to me that is an issue. I would much rather have a short barrel carbine that uses either a pistol round or a uses a intermediate caliber round shared with Assault rifles. Not a fan three separate calibers when two can take care of the role.


    Advantages of MSCM/JVPC
    Better terminal ballistics compared to 9mm (assuming performance similar to FN5.7)
    Lower weight, more rounds can be carried.




     
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  5. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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    Apologies .... yes Sten , but then that too is wrong as it is Indian variant of the Sterling ! ie SAF Carbine (to be factually correct)

    Thanks for the energy equation , will help me novice to learn this.

    Still the same Question w.r.t logistics in mind . Do we still need a Sub machine gun in IA? in a fire team eg USMC , though each person is designated to a task each with its own type of weapon - they still share the same type of ammo - no? (except for heavy fire support). Thus better make this SMG move to police and CAPFs?

    Also, is the IA moving away from 5.56x45mm to 7.62X51mm as its standard rifle?

    Nostalgia
    BCs.jpg
     
  6. GuardianRED

    GuardianRED Captain FULL MEMBER

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  7. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    Yes, that's about right for a 308 round...between 9 and 10 grams.

    Although bullets are usually measured in grains. And the weight varies between manufacturers & types (AP, tracer, subsonic etc.).

    The one OFB is using could be between 130 to 150-grain.
     
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  8. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    @Abingdonboy @Agent_47

    When that RFI for 5.56 CQBR was issued, everyone (including me) was set on the Galil ACE-21 or an M4CQB variant. I almost forgot to ask: why not just a Tavor X95 SBR? We have local manufacturing and I think it'd make more sense going for more Tavors than adopt the new Galils - does anyone have any update on the CQBR procurement?

    [​IMG]

    This is, of course, unless the MCIWS/AAR manages to get ready and impresses Army enough to buy it as the carbine.
     
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  9. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major IDF NewBie

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    I see no reason why it couldn't be the X-95 but it depends on what product IWI offer as part of their resoponse to the RFI. The deciding factor will be price, the X-95 (AFAIK) costs more than the ACE so IWI may be reluctant to offer it knowing it won't be L1.

    Also, there's no chance MCIWS/AAR is adopted as a carbine- it is a full fledged assualt rifle, I haven't even heard of it having a carbine variant so far and even if it did I wouldn't expect the clowns in the IA to give it a fair hearing.
     
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  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    x-95 is being license produced in India. Zittara.

    But has been 'poor' as per some sources. Maddening.
     
  11. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    AFAIK, Zittara is the full-length TAR-21. It's production has been discontinued a long time ago.

    Zittara does not come from the IWI-Punj Llyod JV, btw.
     
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  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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  13. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major IDF NewBie

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    AFAIK the Zittara (the MTAR) was never fully put into production due to differences between IWI and OFB, many years later this IWI-Punj Lloyd JV has been formed.

    No Zittaras ever actually entered service with any serivce and users (like CRPF and BSF) bought their X-95s directly from IWI.
     
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  14. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog IDF NewBie

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  15. Zer0reZ

    Zer0reZ 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Any info on Excalibur AR-2??
     

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