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Indian Small Arms Thread

Discussion in 'Tactical Hardware' started by Gessler, May 20, 2017.

  1. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod MODERATOR

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  2. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major IDF NewBie

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    1) Poor weapon handling from the DG of Infantry FFS
    2) FN FAL mag, IA have totally ditched the idea of perplex/transparent mags?
    3) OFB giving IA what they want (7.62mm NATO) but let's see what excuses they dream up to reject it.......now IA requires 6.8mm anyone?
    4) OFB has done a good job to adopt the INSAS for IA's needs but this is still a pretty disappointing product when compared to modern day battle rifles; the stock is basic with no adjustment possible, the 12 o'clock P-rail does not run the full length of the rifle (there is a break by the handguard for some reason) and the selector/safety switch is still locking very rudimentary.

    The OFB .308 rifle will likely be adopted by some CAPFs at best, the IA are clearly moving to .338 across the board.
    If there was any integrated and logical strategic policy making in India, all of the small arms India needed to import would be sought through the IWI-Punj Lloyd JV, all others would be sourced in-house.

    As it is there will be 3-4 ongoing tenders stretching out for the next god knows how many decades featuring 4-5 global OEMs with plenty of drama and scandels along the way.

    To me it seems as there is no real rush from the senior ranks to make progress, they are so far removed from the soldier on the ground and just interested in getting through their tenure and retiring to greener pastures (fat pensions or positions in the private sector/lecture circuit) so it's easier just to push files around, issue RFIs and pass on the problem to their successor.

    I've said it before, the IA is so bloated and the senior leadership "soft" from not having fought a full-scale war in >40 years now, in fact AFAIK NO soldier in the IA was even commisioned prior to 1971. Hence the priorities are not about giving the soldier what he needs, there is a considerable difference when you hear/see American or British generals talk about modern day combat given that most of them have actually seen it.
     
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  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    It was you? :dude:

    I browsed through here in the morning and was waiting the whole day to dissect this post as it really irritated me then.:angry:

    So here it goes.:butcher:

    What poor weapon handling? Elaborate.

    It is the 'Battle Position' ... now pray, do tell me, is it 'poor handling'? It is one of the eight positions one is taught to fire in .....:coffee:



    Again useless observation. This is more apt to be directed towards OFB ... RFI should answer this. By the ways, the magazine of INSAS is good enough, but the spring is of dubious quality at times (not always, but at times has the tendency to give you a nasty surprise)

    So a QA issue from our venerable free lunch team at OFB.


    No, they are not offering, they are still looking for a partner in EOI as posted by me earlier. This is a concept, that may/may not succeed yet. But post INSAS fiasco, RFI is hard pressed to get it's act together prior to acceptance, unlike last time when they assured rectification of all concerns on user feedback and gave us a pile of ... er crap for 2 decades and counting.

    Really? Says the primary user eh? :fie: Nonsense. One of the most useless weapons for IA as they could not rectify the issues even in 2 decades. Even CAPFs refused new orders couple of years back .....


    All irrelevant observations as a user for me.

    Main issues, the susceptibility of firing pin to break in TRB mode on sustained bases (40-60 rounds; then probability goes up on TRB of a break in firing pin). Tendency of getting 'stuck'. Needs cleaning after 40 - 60 rounds otherwise jams. Then there are critical issues .. with significant statistics, which will remain off forum.

    A good weapon for firing ranges. But crap for war/CI operations.

    Load of crap again. The IA has refused to induct OFB products based on INSAS experience. The lying cheats never rectified the problems of INSAS. Also, the cheats there gave a far inferior product than what had been the prototype.

    Also, it is the soldier on the ground who has called INSAS rifle a junk piece. They prefer Aks in CQB role. Hard Fact. The top hierarchy is listening to men on ground, but vested interests are ensuring that a great narrative of "Indian Army acting difficult. Does not know what it wants, rejecting OFB" etc etc is perpetually in the media and parroted by idiots without knowing what the problem is.

    IA can not make an official comment on any aspect. Hence, when it is attacked, it is at a disadvantage.

    You know the effing OFB makes an effing Enamel Cup? Who the eff uses an Enamel Cup? You are employing thousands to make crap like shirt, pull overs, buttons, gardening tools, pickets, field tables and chairs (more heavy, more costly and less shelf life than equivalent from say Decathlon) ropes, heck even pins, screws and needles!!!!

    Now collate the number of factories and personnel and work out why the hell we still import 50-60% of our ammunition?

    Not one over here knows the truth, only parrots one crap after another.


    Really? Every officer today, from the Chief down to a Lieutenant, has served/is serving in active CI/CT operations. A soldier of IA (including officers, JCOs and ORs of Infantry mainly) does 3-4 rotations in active areas, each of 2.5-3 years duration, that is 8-12 yrs of CI/CT and at least 5 years of High Altitude operations in a span of say 22-25 years.


    Full Scale war? Who is 'experienced' in full scale war? No one. Neither is US nor is anyone experienced at it.

    US fights rag tag bunch known as Talibanis, uses air power and artillery against small dispersed forces in mountain warfare, it is like using a sledgehammer to kill an ant in side a rock. You can pound the rock away and the ant will still crawl away. US did not put 'boots on ground' which is needed to fight in mountain and especially in a counter insurgent environment. In deserts, again, they are fighting an enemy with forces that are meant to fight conventional battles. They have no liability for collateral damage. They try to minimise, but at the end of the day, they have the comfort of knowing they can get away for error. Not so for IA, which is fighting in it's own country against who are supposedly it's own citizens.

    Making a big bang is not experience in fighting a war.

    I mean, what a rant bereft of any logic here by you @Abingdonboy

    Replied by me with another rant.
     
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  4. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    @Abingdonboy

    OFB is one of our most useless DPSU in terms of QA. They are extremely corrupt and it's common knowledge that they cut corners over the smallest of things.
     
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  5. Vyom

    Vyom Captain IDF NewBie

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    The Only Comment that I have is... WHY THE NINCOMPOOPS OF OFB ARE BEING TRUSTED ?

    Sorry, had to vent that.

    Ask a private manufacturer to make any effing gun that is selected... have final Quality Control and Assurance under Armed forces...
     
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  6. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    We have enough of "indigenous" gullibles around here too ..... :facepalm:
     
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    Private industry thrives on orders. If we want private companies manufacturing weapons, they will need constant orders. If they stop getting orders, then they will wind up their business in order to cut costs.

    The US arms industry thrives on domestic orders. I don't know if the European industry does the same. But in India, the govt claims that they cannot keep ordering ammo ever year. Meaning there is a dry period between orders and that prevents private industry from keeping their production lines open. So we have to depend on a PSU which can keep its lines gathering dust until new orders come.

    It may be true, it may not be, I call it BS. What do you think, Hell?
     
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  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    People always get confused between indigenous and self-reliance. They don't understand the difference. What they want is self-reliance, but what they don't realize is that manufacturing 85% of the Su-30MKI in India makes it indigenous, even if the jet was designed and developed in Russia. And that LCA is less indigenous than MKI. Foreign dependency in the manufacturing process is what defines indigenous. The IWI Tavor is also as indigenous as INSAS as far as India is concerned.

    Self-reliance happens when we are holding IPR to the technology. But at the same time, most people don't realize that self-reliance is a test match, not a one day. And that you gotta play well every day if you want to win a test match, which the DPSUs are unable to.

    Regardless, whether the tech is indigenous(Tavor - Zittara) or self-reliant(INSAS), OFB is always there to F it up. What can design agencies (IWI or ARDE) do if the manufacturer is useless?
     
  9. Dagger

    Dagger 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I don't think people mean public sector when they ask for indigenous. Punj lloyd manufacturing IWI guns is more than welcome.
    Just that the manufacturing is done in India.
    Every PSU is a blackhole of tax payer money Filled with 8 hour punchers.
     
  10. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    yes, there are and those idiots only demand a level playing field and not sabotaging made in India products to somehow ensure induction of imported costly and inferior product. I fail to understand why do we always call our OFBs bad names. WW2, the finest .303 rifles were manufactured in India. Pls read the history. Even before the arrival of Mongols, Indian weapons were the finest in the world. Those artisans were either killed or their hands chopped off by invaders to ensure that Indians lose an edge over them. Have you ever heard of Sirohi sword and why was it so named?
     
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  11. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    only rifle in the world to pass the most stringent test of mud and water dip was again an OFB product while every other product of the world failed. The ASQR issued for MCIWS was so funny that no one in the world cud meet those criteria. I really want to know from where does IAF & IA source their comics to make such stupid QRs.
     
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  12. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    India is an ancient civilisation -----> fact;

    Also a fact ----- dwell in history too long, and you become a relic.



    Also a fact:

    India is one of the shittiest countries - literally, in the world. Where is the 'ancient civilisation' in that?

    Do not drag history into present India. Present India is worse than 1980s India. Look around and check for yourself. So, next time, do not quote history to me, because it is irrelevant and frankly, shows you to be stuck in a fantasy land.

    And indigenisation is not equal to OFB/DPSUs exclusively. Learn to understand the crux of the discussion here. Problem is, you are tom toming OFB product without an iota of information on what is happening. Did you read the date of EoI? If they were so confident, why the hell are they looking for a partner now? Read the terms of the EoI!

    Indigenise - yes ,do not subvert Private Entities to promote DPSU and OFB set up that is making more useless stuff like enamel cups, tin hats, degchi, flannel shirt(who the hell wears flannel in IA?), flannel pants, blankets, dongas, kadchi, plate, thali, lantern, petromax, canvas washbasin, stand iron for canvas wash basin, WW2 era shovels etc, basically everything that is being made by private players in civil set up than ammunition and explosives (almost 60% of which we still import inspite of having the know how) or IPEs (which DRDO ensured was scuttled in 1990 when it ASSURED its capability to fabricate it and the Swastik Rubber, Chinchwad Pune was asked to discontinue production result-----> Imports of IPE in 1999, 2003 and even last year; wow great effort at indigenisation)

    Don't make me waste time reading such useless historical 'facts' which have no relevance today, except as a cursory glance for potential.
     
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  13. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    What is a mud test?

    Now I am curious as to what you know of it :)
     
  14. Hellfire

    Hellfire Devil's Advocate THINKER

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    No ... they don't .. but the monopoly has been established in such a way that private players, are left out.

    Are you aware that Galil was selected as Rifle for IA in 2015 but scrapped as Single Vendor situation arose? And what do you read? IA shifted it's requirements from bicalibre weapon so could not be done!

    It was GoI which scrapped the OEM, not Army. Army made it's GSQR, got Galil, which proved itself in trials, and since there was only one company, GoI unilaterally, yes Mr Modi it was, scrapped it, asking IA to restart. So IA made another GSQR, saw trends world over and drew lessons of ISAF and US in Afghanistan and drew in 7.62 x 51 mm ... and lo behold, charges of 'Army can not decide' come right in ...

    I mean wtf? 2012 GSQR and 2016 GSQR should be same? Is that so?

    Now also, Punj Lloyd is getting ahead in game and there comes media report one after another of OFB having 7.62 x 51 mm weapon ready .. and an EOI (conveniently overlooked) by RFI looking for an OEM for tech transfer and integration for 'a futuristic 7.62 x 51 mm ASSAULT RIFLE!!

    Maybe we are going to be allowed to hold them as private citizens now? Since RFI already made the rifle right?

    What bullshit.

    Go through this topic related threads. All are up in arms as to why IA is not immediately accepting OFB product.

    No one, till now, can give me why the f&$^ is that damn EoI out if the weapon is so goddamned great?

    Because it is piece of crap, just like INSAS. A Concept and they are looking for Army's feedback, scared that Punj Lloyd has moved ahead and Mr Modi will act on his threat to DPSUs and DRDO/OFB of perform or perish!

    The fat lying slobs are sweating as private sector stole the march .. I am loving it

    I am all for indigenous, but dead against these SoBs who have subverted the indigenous industries at every step.
     
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  15. vstol jockey

    vstol jockey Colonel MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    You have resorted to rhetoric, pls answer me one by one about what I wrote. AND tell me where have I stated that we must buy inferior Indian product? Our forces and the men who fight need best weapons-Pls remember best weapons and not imported weapons peddled as superior. How can one be an Indian if he does not give his own country an equal chance and supports import lobby? This is the major difference between my upbringing as Naval Officer and that of my coursemates from IAF & IA. They speak exactly what you have spoken here. Even before the tender has been replied to, even before any gun having been tried except for OFB gun, you have passed your judgement in favour of Tavor. Why and How? you are hard wired like that by the service you belong to.
    Today if their is any service which is not crying is IN and thanks to Indian products. Look at the shit hole IA & IAF are in today. Who is to blame for it? The thinking and mentality.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2017

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