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Indian Tender For Next Gen Subs (Project-75I)

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by tariqkhan18, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    I went through some reports of the Australian submarine deal to get info's on some of the subs, capabilities and more importantly why the French sub was chosen, or why the others were rejected.

    Especially interesting was the rejection of the Soryu-class sub, which was partially politically and partially capability wise as it seems. The earlier, because just as we see in the US2 deal, Japan has issues with diverting licence production and ToT and initially wanted to build the subs in Japan, which Australia didn't aceppted. The lack of experience with defence exports and industrial offers were also sighted as a disadvantage over the French and German competitors.

    On the sub itself, one major problem was the limited operational life, since Japan is further developing their subs every 20 years, while Australia demanded a life of 30+ years, which is usual. Another problem was the limited range, since Australia needs to cover a wide area unlike Japan. Also problematic was the fact, that the latest version of the sub replaced the Sterling AIP system (that Japan seems to have been licence build from Sweden), with Lithium Ion batteries. These however are new and have caused several incedents in different applications, like the fires in the Boeing 787 airliners. Australia evaluated them and found the risks of malfunction in a sub too high!

    For India this is pretty interesting, since we require much ToT and a full licence production and the way the US2 deal went, the sub deal might have even less chances.
    We also have a wide area to cover and if the range limitation is an issue in our tender as well (depending on the version they offer), it can be a major disadvantage. The battery problem is also of concern and could be even a deal breaker from the start, if IN requires AIP.
     
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  2. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Read what you wrote. L&T have no use of russian tech if others are selected. Which is always true.
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Because it's Russian techs! If they would team up with a company of a NATO country instead, the joint development has more chances to be used in a German or French sub.
     
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  4. Luttapi

    Luttapi 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Russia just about to start sea trials of AIP system to be fitted on submarines. Why do we need not developed system. AIP_Air_Independent_Propulsion_System_Russia_AMUR.jpg
     
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  5. defc0n

    defc0n 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    New Delhi: In a move to counter China's growing undersea prowess in the Indian Ocean region, the Indian government is set to roll-out the process for a Rs 60,000 crore submarine programme for its navy.

    The current defence acquisition project to be launched under the 'Strategic Partnership' model finalised last month aims to rope in leading private players for the production of major military platforms in the country.

    The Defence Ministry is likely to issue the Expression of Interest (EoI) for the project in the next few days, to kick start the process for the deal, sources said.

    The project is being considered crucial to counter the rapid expansion of China's naval fleet. The Indian Navy has been pressing the government for clearing the project.

    Engineering conglomerate Larsen and Toubro and Reliance Defence are the only private firms eligible to participate in the P-75 I programme, said another source. Defence PSU Mazagon Dock Ltd is also in contention for the project.

    The government will subsequently initiate the process to shortlist the foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the project based on laid down norms in the strategic partnership model.

    Six Scorpene-class submarines are currently being built under 'Project 75' of the Indian Navy. The submarines, designed by French naval defence and energy company DCNS, are being built by Mazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai.

    The project P-75 (I) will be a follow-on for Project 75. A total of six submarines are to be built under the P-75 (I) project.

    Under the SP model, select private firms will be engaged to build military platforms like submarines and fighter jets in India in partnership with foreign entities.

    A 49 per cent FDI cap has been kept for setting up ventures under the strategic partnership model for the production of defence platforms and the companies will be in control of Indian entities.

    As per the framework, to manufacture major defence platforms, the select Indian companies will require tie-ups with OEM for transfer of technology (ToT).

    Source : http://www.timesnow.tv/india/articl...me-counter-china-influence-indian-ocean/62946
     
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  6. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    http://m.thehindubusinessline.com/n...rines-from-the-indian-navy/article9727176.ece
     
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  7. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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  8. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    When we say BrahMos, it automatically means Land Attack Klubs too. And that is a very good news when Nirbhay project is in such a condition.
     
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  9. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Well, that's needs to be seen. Brahmos is at least a JV missile with Indian origin and IF it's possible to integrate VLS that might be a powerful addition, but adding Russian Klub land attack missiles on western subs is probably a no go from all sides.

    We need Brahmos M and Nirbhay badly, IN and MoD has to put a focus on that!
     
  10. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    BrahMos was not the lone thing , which was signed to be upgraded to its original capability.

    And any submarine [western] which will fire BrahMos ,will have ULVM launch cells [Russian] and associated sub systems.

    And if a submarine is made capable of firing BrahMos from ULVM, the only thing needed for Klubs on it, is the missile itself. All of Klub family, Kaliber Family , BrahMos family and any missile derived from KH101 family , if available in Indian inventory, could be fired, without Indian Navy needing the western OEM or Russia to do anything.


    Remember Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile capability is a must have for P75I. Either the OEM has the capability to supply it [Like France and Naval SCALP] or will have to get one from another vendor [like TKMS, SAAB or Japan ].

    And when the submarine is being claimed to have the capability to fire BrahMos, it only makes sense to have Klubs too. Not a single penny more needed , apart from the cost of missiles themselves.
     
  11. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The Klub missiles are used through the torpedo tubes and that's it doubtful for western subs. Also if you have VLS to operate Brahmos, why would you waste the (limited) space for Klub missiles?

    That's true, but any of these options would be launched via torpedo tubes not VLS. In fact the addition of a separate hull section for the VLS is a major problem, because Brahmos is a very long missile and that additional module might deny the addition of an AIP propulsion. Not even Russian SSK offers included VLS and AIP at the same time, it was always either or. So one has to ask if VLS is worth it, when we already know, that Brahmos M and Nirbhay will be tube launched like Klub, Scalp or Tomahawk...?
     
  12. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Klubs cannot be only launched through torpedo tubes.

    Why Klub instead of all BrahMos load? Because you cannot use BrahMos at 1500 km , at a fraction of its cost. Remember unlike USA , we have limited resources. And the primary reason behind Nirbhay is the prohibitive cost of BrahMos.


    Further BrahMos would need a 633 Torpedo tube. Would be surely better to be launched from a VLS section.

    And yes, obviously you cannot fit a VLS and AIP simultaneously In a sub 2000 ton submarine.

    But you can do it in a 4000 ton one.
     
  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    That's my point! If you have only limited VLS space, you don't waste that for Klub missiles, that could be launched via torpedo tubes anyway and stick only with Brahmos for VLS. That way you have both missiles and can choose depending on the target.
     
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  14. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Okies.
    I get your point.
     
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  15. lca-fan

    lca-fan Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Chinese nightmare : Japanese Soryu-class submarines in fray for Indian Navy’s submarine project
    Published July 20, 2017 SOURCE: THE HINDU

    [​IMG]

    Six advanced submarines, to be built under Project 75(I) to scale up the Navy’s warfare capabilities, are set to get off the starters’ block, with the Navy issuing a Request for Information (RFI) to six foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the €8.3-billion submarine project.

    “The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” confirmed officials who got the RFI, adding that “the L1 for P-75(I) will most likely be announced only at the end of next year.”

    A surprise contender among the six OEMs is Japan’s leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which have been “strongly promoting their technological prowess to win contracts to build India’s next generation of submarines,” said sources.

    Other than Japan, OEMs from Spain, France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are also in the mix, and have been issued the RFI that details the technical requirements the Indian Navy would like in P-75(I), said sources.

    The Navy has issued the RFI to Russian submarine manufacturer Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, French naval contractor Naval Group (earlier DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab.

    “The manufacture of six next-generation stealth submarines has moved to the crucial next stage with this RFI,” said an official, who bagged the RFI, seeking anonymity. “Qualified OEMs, which are the technology provider, will be issued an expression of interest (EoI) much later by the Indian Navy. This (foreign OEMs) is patented under India’s newly-announced Strategic Partnership Model in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016,” the official added.

    Technology transfer

    Stating that the long-delayed procedure has got a fresh lease of life with the issuance of the RFI, sources indicated that the foreign OEMs will respond to the RFI “to show how they are qualified to build the six submarines with a partner in India. The OEMs will be transferring important know-how, and actual transfer of technology will be key to ascertain which foreign tech partner teams up with the Indian strategical partner.”

    Sources added that though the basic parameters of importance in the RFI was the Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP), “which is very innovative, though dangerous,” details were also sought on the means to increase the submarines’ “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability.”

    Among other things, the OEMs were asked to submit data on the proposed design for torpedo tubes, sources said, which could launch heavy-weight torpedoes, missiles and discharge other weapons. They were also asked to elaborate on the transfer of technology they were willing to undertake with regard to the submarine design and construction. The OEMs were asked to detail their plans for the discharge of offset commitments.

    http://idrw.org/chinese-nightmare-j...r-indian-navys-submarine-project/#more-141785 .
     

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