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Indian Tender For Next Gen Subs (Project-75I)

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by tariqkhan18, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    I'm still in favor of just scrapping the whole P75I tender, just order about 6 or so additional Scorpenes with AIP (on top of the 6+2 under P75) and shut the doors for conventional SSK procurement. Just make sure MDL's two parallel submarine production lines work fine.

    By the time this decade is over, IN shouldn't still be looking to place orders for conventional subs. If at all a need arises - then more Scorpenes! It's a great boat, add AIP and you have a killer.

    SSNs are where funds & efforts should be concentrated.
     
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  2. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Forget the LHDs, hardly 25% navy ships carry helicopter. Which should have been in scrap.
     
  3. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    They build SSBNs based on Russian know how and designs, that doesn't automatically mean they can design and develop an own SSK right away.
    The logical choice would be a follow order for Scorpenes, but this time with AIP and have L&T/DRDO develop an own design in parallel.
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The LPD tender is not under the SPM, that's makes things different anyway. Reliance could win both.
     
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    https://ria.ru/amp/defense_safety/20170811/1500179494.html

    So Russia continues to not have an own operational AIP SSK, which means no experience in integrating one in their sub designs either.
    Using DRDOs experimental AIP and combine it with their subs won't be easy for sure.
     
  6. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    [​IMG]

    Project 677 Lada class without AIP
     
  7. Hjörþrimul

    Hjörþrimul FULL MEMBER

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    I'm on the fence regarding the Lada design. Originally the program was a massive failure due to severe structural and design issues with St. Peterburg, and with Kronshtadt having been stopped half-way through construction to implement quick-fix design changes. Velikiye Luki should be better, having implemented the changes done to Kronshtadt from the start, but with both boats still under construction, it's anyone's guess what problems will arise once they take to the sea. The lack of an AIP module isn't insignificant either.

    I'd steer clear of the Lada until the two newer, redesigned boats have have time in the water. Until then there's too much risk that like St. Peterburg they'll have an issue.

    Russia hasn't had the best of luck with submarines recently either. Borei, Yasen and Lada all had major issues. Only their special missions platforms like Sarov and Losharik have been relatively issue free.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    They've also been rather successful in converting older submarines, such as the Delta-III stretch, Losharik's mothership.

    [​IMG]

    And a recent Delta-IV conversion BS-64 Podmoskovye, also a special mission spy-submarine. Immediately you'll notice the conversion lacks the missile hump.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Delta-III before conversion. It's similar to the Delta-IV.

    [​IMG]

    BS-64 during conversion, with its missile silos removed.

    [​IMG]

    Like Gessler, I'd rather see the IN pursue additional Scorpenes, though I'm not too hot on that design either.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  8. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Yasen had design issues ?
     
  9. Hjörþrimul

    Hjörþrimul FULL MEMBER

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    In a manner of speaking yes, though its major issues were financial and technological obsolescence largely. However, the Yasen and Yasen-M do differ in a few ways indicating the RN was unsatisfied with the original design.

    The Pr.885 has just a single hatch covering the missile tubes, while the Pr.885M has twin doors. The Pr.885M is also about 10m shorter then the original Pr.885, also indicating the original design wasn't strictly satisfactory. Neither of these are issues though. Yasen's problems were external mostly. Yasen-M is in better shape, however, both from a financial and technical perspective.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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  11. Notsuperstitious

    Notsuperstitious 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What are the chances of AIP tech becoming obsolete due to revolutions in battery tech by the time DRDO makes AIP?
     
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  12. TrueGR!T

    TrueGR!T FULL MEMBER

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    :D
    Its in the nature of the game. As it is, they're struggling to meet expectations. It might be more than a bit unrealistic to expect them to stay ahead of the game.
    We need to leverage our young talent across top universities in a bigger way than what we're already doing. That's a discussion for another time though, I'm digressing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
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  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Since the discussion was about the SPM and subs, I put the reply in this thread.

    The navy has plenty of projects running, because they are the most effected by the lack of procurements and delays in MoD reforms.

    - P75 subs
    - naval helicopters
    - carrier fighter
    - MPAs
    - LPDs
    - replenishment tanker
    ...

    Even the mine layers deal has still issues, after being cancelled, re-issued, the same winner re-selected.

    Most of them were DAC cleared by the former government and passed over during the elections, or purposely delayed to fit the SPM now and since the tenders fall under different procurement policies, they can be done by private, or government owned ship yards.
     
  14. Agent_47

    Agent_47 Admin - Blog Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Navy extends submarine RFI deadline

    The Indian Navy has extended the deadline for submission of responses to a Request For Information (RFI) for it’s P75(I) Make In India submarine program.

    The responses to the RFI were due by September 15, 2017 but the deadline for the RFI, issued in July, has been extended to October 16, 2017.

    Six global warship manufacturers are expected to compete for the program: Naval Group of France (formerly DCNS), Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) of Germany, Navantia of Spain, Russia’s Rosoboronexport, Saab Kockums of Sweden and the Japanese industrial combine of Mitsubishi and Kawasaki.

    While no reason has been officially attributed for the extension of the deadline, sources explained to StratPost that the step has been taken to accommodate requests made by several vendors expected to submit bids.

    And while the Government of India wants to make sure of Japanese engagement in this competition, irrespective of the eventual outcome, the Japanese have not yet decided whether they want to participate in a competitive tender after their experience in Australia.

    In recent years, Japan has taken its first steps into the international defense market, pitching its Soryu-class submarine in an Australian competition, which was eventually won by DCNS, now called Naval Group.

    Firstly, the Japanese will require clearances for export before they can respond to the RFI and it is still unclear how this will be managed within the timelines under consideration, even though the Japanese government had established a new Acquisition Technology and Logistics Agency (ATLA) under the Japanese defense ministry in 2016. If the Japanese participate in the competition, it is the ATLA which is expected to lead the bid.

    Secondly, with snap polls anticipated in Japan within the next two or three months, observers anticipate no decision on Japanese participation before a new government is formed.

    Thirdly, a decision on participation will also be contingent on a review of the progress made on the sale of the US-2i amphibious aircraft to the Indian Navy, which the Japanese government has been negotiating as its first international defense sale for several years, now.

    Meanwhile, Saab has confirmed its intention to participate in the RFI. Jan Widerström, Country Head and Chairman of Saab India told StratPost, “We will be responding to the RFI.”

    The participation of the Saab Kockums A26 submarine was uncertain as the company’s top leadership mulled over the prospect after the RFI was published.

    TKMS has already announced it will be submitting a response to the RFI. Naval Group, Navantia and the Russians are also expected to participate.

    https://www.stratpost.com/navy-extends-submarine-rfi-deadline/

    @Sancho @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Gessler @Ankit Kumar 001
     
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  15. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    If TKMS, SAAB , DCNS and Russia have submitted their bids, I see no reason to extend. Japan and Spain are out of the competition even before it's start.

    The main competition will be between SAAB and TKMS.

    Two separate production lines, independent of each other is the key, which we shouldn't forget.
     
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