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Indian Tender For Next Gen Subs (Project-75I)

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by tariqkhan18, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    more like the germans and the russains, the post above your gives a good indicator saab is not to hopeful the germans would offer a 214 version to india but to your needs, like how they did the same thing to norway modifying the 212 to their needs.

    the russains would offer their kalina project or the amur

    what have the french offered, an enlarged scorpene?
     
  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    We already have 2 production lines for subs in India, Scorpene and nuclear subs, so do we really need another one? The important question is, does any competitor of DCNS, offer something special that would be worth a dedicated line and not go for a follow on order of Scorpenes?
     
  3. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Whoever wins does not matter. L&T khareedo :badass:
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    http://wap.business-standard.com/ar...gh-profile-deals-unlikely-117092000307_1.html
     
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    If TKMS would offer the U214 again, they don't stand a chance. They have to push for the more advanced U216 to be competitive with DCNS. The Scorpene should still be the best choice, for the requirements. AIP is proven and available, but they give DRDO the go ahead to integrate the indigenous system too and they can offer tube launched Exocet and more importantly Scalp cruise missiles.
    No other OEM offers these advantages + the fact that we already have a production line and know how available in India, which should not be wasted.
     
  6. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    if you want the t216 then ask the French for the barracuda then but thats the class of the sub, remember the germans would at most off the juicy stuff to well connected partners europe and most nato allies india no exception. Australia being a recent example.

    the scorpene is a good sub and can be modified to suit future users needs, the aip is supposed to be indian so thats on you.
    personally if i was in your shoes i would pick the french option.

    as for the naval scalp, not gonna happen the missile is above the mtcr regs <=300km <=500kg warhead. just because you join the group does not make you an exception. if hypothetically it does happen the chinese can offer their latest cj-10 to pakistan openly, but they wont as the babur is already able to be launched from subs.

    if india wants a sub similar to the t216 then russia might just be your best bet
     
  7. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Two SSK production line.

    SSBN serve different purpose. And even the SSNs [the 6 approved] come, they would first be utilised in guarding the CBG and SSBN service station areas.

    So we do need 2x12 SSK in any condition.... untill GOI changes its mind , increases the SSN numbers and decides to lease 3-5 more Akula....
     
  8. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The one has nothing to do with the other, U216 is an AIP SSK just as the U214 or the Scorpene, but while the U214 is based on the old U209 series, the U216 is based on the more advanced U212 series.
    The Barracuda class or a non nuclear conversion, makes only sense for countries, that want larger subs for long range/endurance operations, that's why it was offered in Australia and why the Germans offered a larger U216 version.
    Indian navies requirement is for smaller SSKs and the U216 would be the technologically more advanced offer, even if in the same size of U214.

    Yes it does mean that we can get longer range missiles, see Brahmos now and the fact that we getting it for Rafale as well, but even if they decided to limit the range to 300Km, it outclasses anything TKMS, or Saab can offer, while the Russian only can counter with tube launched Club missiles or Brahmos VLS, which is only a concept for their SSKs so far, just as AIP.
     
  9. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    Non of the Scoepene [Or an enlarged variant] , or Type 214 [or its derivative ] or Amur [Or its derivatives] will be there.

    The Germans have more than a decade ago lost with the Type214 in India before.There most likely offering will be a new concept derived from Type 216 using VLS modules.... maybe a enlarged variant of Type218SG.

    The Russians won't come with Amur for the same reason that Spain won't make a cut with its S80 class. The Russians will come with yet again modernised Kilo with a AIP plug in option.

    And France.... I again repeat " Two Independent Production Lines".... so you know the end result.

    SAAB has got a pretty good option, with its A26 actually in works... and a possible tie up with one of the biggest private Indian company.... with a bit of political influence too....
     
  10. Gessler

    Gessler Mod MODERATOR

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    You do realize we already tested BrahMos with MTCR restrictions removed, right?

    Out to 450km (150km more than MTCR guideline) - http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-version-of-supersonic-cruise-missile/583856/

    And there's BrahMos-ER in development with ~600km reach. Prez Putin himself stated that extended range BrahMos is in works. So screw MTCR at least as far as Russia is concerned.

    Even if the French are not willing to do what Russia could (even though they already did in past with UAE) there's no reason why a <300km SCALP MdCN can't be bought. Especially when the Air Force is already getting SCALP-EG (though range not revealed for Indian version).

    Edit: As of China giving CJ-10 to Pak...well they kinda already did so that's not a factor to consider anymore. Babur draws heavily from CJ10 (itself heavily copied from Ukrainian Korshun-M)...even the Babur engine is supplied by China.

    Chinese have been violating MTCR wrt pakistan for decades.
     
  11. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    incorrect the type 212 is a new clean sheet design, and the t214 is based of the 212 but adapted for export. the t216 is a bit of bot 212 and 214.
    the 216 as big from the beginning, a smaller versionof the 216 is the t218 which singapore is getting.

    i would be suprised to see the french giving india full fat scalp missiles, what happened to the nirbhay? then again this all just wish list thinking.
    speaking of the nirbhay, have they killed it yet?
     
  12. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    You have explained why we need nuclear and conventional subs, not why we need a 3rd production line? Why shouldn't it be possible to increase L&Ts production line to build Scorpenes as well? Building Scorpenes on their and the available Mazogon line would be easier and faster. IN could get more SSKs in shorter time and reduce the type of SSKs from 3 to 1.
     
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  13. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Both are different designs that share mainly sub systems. As I said, the U214 is based on the 209 that India already has. That's why they offered to upgrade them initially to 214 standard.

    =>

    https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/hdw-class-214.html

    U216 as said, same design of the 212, but in a larger form factor and some new features.

    They have to provide land attack capability, since that is required in the tender and Exocet won't cut it. Naval Scalp is the logical option and a stop gap until Nirbhay (under development) or more Brahmos NG will be available and it needs to be seen which OEM / country would allow the integration of these missiles. I doubt Germany would officially give approval, but then again we know that Israel has integrated tube launched missiles with possible nuclear strike capability too.
     
  14. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    the t214 is a solid design and they have experience going all the back to ww2 so dont even bother discounting them.

    the t218 is a bespoke design for singapore so thats out of the question, unless india has the same criterion's as singapore which is unlikely.

    the s80 from spain is going through a rough patch right now and something the usa may promote as it uses American tech(including fuel cells)
    its chances......next to none and they wont have time dealing with india as they need to finish it before even thinking of promoting it.

    the amur is a good option imo and they are working on fuel cell tech so its an avenue worth exploring

    the a26 is not is under construction india will get it post 2030 easily and they would want an enlarged version which they have planned with images of it on this thread somewhere so they would need money to develop the larger version. also note they have not even responded to the rfi so yeah.......no.

    the scorpene is the best bet, finish the 6 scorpenes and seamlessly build the enlarged/modified version. the nitty gritty has already been ironed out os its a case of making it happen.


    the brahmos is a joint russain indian project, the russains a laxed about the mtcr in regards to india but the same cant be said in regards to other countries like indoneasia.

    the scalp-eg is only the french version of the missile just as the storm shadow the british version of the missile. Both have domestic and export variants. ksa have the export version of the storm shadow and the uae has the scalp export variant. india will have scalp missiles similar to that of the uae and egypt.

    as for the cj-10 drawing heavily from the babur is pure bollocks, (excuse my french) prove it.the babur draws heavily from the tomahawk, mcdn, kh-55 and cj-10 heck even the nirbhay. there all got a cylindrical body, all got folded pop out wings, all have a turbofan/jet engine and all go boom at the end. how do you know they use a chinese engine? have you been there and seen it, and its a bit rich to say that seeing india uses a underpowered 36mt.
     
  15. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 Major Technical Analyst

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    That can obviously be done.
     

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